1. Who's Website has Details on the "Thardic Legions"?
2. How are the Thardic Legions Organized?
3. Where can I get a copy of the Tharda Module?
4. Since Tharda is a republic, how Roman like is it?
5. Guild based plots in Coranan?
6. If a freeman wishes to join a standing army, under what conditions would he be accepted?
7. Would he need to know how to fight already?
8. If he were accepted without experience would they train and equip him? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
9. What do the Legionnaires in Coranan Do?
10. Who Watches Over the Rest of the City?
11. But don't Legionnaires help build roads (a la Nordaka Road Adventures)?
12. So what's a day like for a legionnaire?
13. So how does Magic work in your Harn?
14. Could a Shenava buy a slave in Tharda?
15. What does Schylla & Charibdis mean?
16. Who is the Geminost commander
17. Does Chivlary Exist in Tharda


1. Who's Website has Details on the "Thardic Legions"?

Asked By Chris McNeil Posted to the Harnlist on: Sunday, April 16, 2000 2:52 AM

R Downey (AKA Ketherian) runs a site called: Schylla & Charibdis (http://www.ketherian.org/paxtharda/), it details the Thardic Legions as well as the Senate, a few of the great clans of Tharda (an ongoing project) and an odd assortment of places. By the way, on a good search engine you should be able to type in "Thardic Republic" and get a hit on my web page.


2. How are the Thardic Legions Organized?

Asked By Chris McNeil Posted to the Harnlist on: Sunday, April 16, 2000 2:52 AM

A Legion is the term used to define all the army's forces within a province. Since the Thardic Republic has seven provinces, it has seven legions. The Red Guard is counted as part of the Coranan Legion and not as a legion unto itself.

The Cohort divides into the following:

A total of fifty-eight men; ten regular foot, thirty-eight reserve foot; seven reserve and three regular equestrians.

For more information on how the Legions are organized, I recommend you read Jonathan M. Davidson's article on the Alternate Army.


3. Where can I get a copy of the Tharda Module?

Asked By Chris McNeil Posted to the Harnlist on: Sunday, April 16, 2000 2:52 AM

The Thardic Republican Kingdom module is copyright N. Robin Crossby and Columbia Games 1984. It is available from them for 19.98. They offer a high quality photocopy with color copies of their maps. It is product #5009. Order online at Columbia Games website, or check out web sites that sell older products.


4. Since Tharda is a republic, how Roman like is it?

By Chris McNeil Posted to the Harnlist on: Sunday, April 16, 2000 2:52 AM

The official background is that the republic is loosely basedon on the Corani Empire (its predecessor). Tharda is an oligarchy (rulership by council...in this case a senate). It would be expansionistic were it not so busy dealing with tribal incursions, and dangerous neighbors. In my view it has the technological advancements of Rome and there are similarities in its social structure, but that is where the comparisons end.

The Thardic republic is only (720-673) 47 years old; if you include the League and the Coranan Republic - that makes it only 146 years old. Also, Hârnworld is set in the 13th Century (approximately). That alone does not fit a "roman" model. Also:

Tharda has many similarities to Rome in appearance - but that's where things end. At best Tharda could be considered a Roman imposter, or perhaps Rome's younger, poorer and smaller cousin. Comparing it to an Italian City State might be closer but...


5. Guild based plots in Coranan

This one is complicated - thus here is the original post from whence came the question(s).

"Hello all - I have a party setting up as newcomers to Coronan and have some questions that could turn out to be a nice plot hook. The major guild-based things on the go in Coronana are the efforts of the pilots guild to lower the footage of boats requiring pilots, and of the teamsters brotherhood to become a guild.

"The first of these is interesting. The pilots guild is traditionally very strong (and rich) in all seaports in Lythia - however the Coronan chapter is weak and very sparse on the ground. I think the official description is "Shabby" or something similar. This is largely due to the fact that the Thard riverboats are all 29' long and don't need pilots until they are 30' long - hence the pilots guild is using some recent boat losses as an excuse to petition for this to be reduced to 16'. I can see why the pilots guild would want this, and in any seaport their dominant wealth, etc would mean that it would quickly occur - however this is NOT the case in Coronan. they can spend but the dominant guilds of the Coronan mangai are the litigants, mercantylers, and clothiers. None of these would benefit from the drop in length - and the mercantylers would suffer due to an increase in shipping fees to cover piloting. So why would they support it? I assume we must be looking at higher level machinations. Now the major clash is between the Nordaka clan and the Wytel (?) clan. The Nordakas are primarily involved in land routes (esp the Salt route) so could probably absorb a rise in prices - but info on the others is fairly sparse. Could they be largely focused on river trade and therefore suffer greatly? Any tharda experts with more thoughts on the matter? Finally it is interesting to reflect these on the second option - perhaps whoever is spending high to increase shipping costs is also actively resisiting any rse in land transport fees at the hand of a new teamsters guild? This economic and political intrigue could keep my players tied down for some time so any ideas would be greatly appreciated."

By Tim Gill Posted to the Harnlist on: 04/30/2000

The situation

It doesn't help that the river thard is rather wide and gentle around Coranan city - so much so that ferry boats are the most common method to travel from Kuseme to the city proper. But it is the river-barges that carry goods from Golotha to Shiran that the pilot's guild truely wishes to gouge er... I mean engage.

Only about 50% of all goods produced along the river Thard are actually transported by the river - and of these over 75% of the goods are luxury or expensive items. There is little reported piracy on the river (a few boats are "capsized" and loose their goods each season, but that doesn't officially count); and near the borders the rivers are safer than the roads. The river around the city could be made even more safe if the pilot's guild has their way.

Who would support this?

Coronan's official position is that the pilot's guild requires the work to improve it's lot and assure that all boats entering Coronan's harbour are piloted safely. They point at the spring and fall traffic-jams on the waterways and the handful of deaths and cargo disasters that occur just as the salt-route caravan comes in, and again in the fall when it departs. Merchants so determined to get their late goods on the caravan become desperate, willing to beg, bribe and/or steal spots along the harbour; hijacking labourers and buying extra slaves on the spot to deal with the unloading of their boats.

In truth, while there are a few bad days, and a few accidents - it is not as grim a picture as the pilot's guild paints. The more wealthy merchants see backing the pilot's request as a method of assuring they (who can afford the pilot's fees) will get into/out of dock before those of the competition who cannot afford the fees. The Nordaka's are backers of the idea in the hopes that it will drive more goods to the roads.

The Nordaka's have no _official_ intention to raise the price of caravans. For more information on them see the article on Schylla & Charibdis at: http://www.ketherian.org/paxtharda/thardexsociety/nordaka.htm and their main competetors (and allies to the Wytel clan) http://www.ketherian.org/paxtharda/thardexsociety/weijik.htm

About the Wytel clan

The Wytels are a fairly new clan, with two senators (Seat #33 Borisi Wytel, Geshtei, Consolidationist, 703 and Seat #34, Brae Wytel, Eidru, Consolidationist, 694) both lobbying for the pilot guild's request. The clan is stuck, due to their patronage of all things seaman-related, they must back and support the pilot's guild. The Wytels own a small fleet of boats on the river and are backers of a few ship captains who sail in Lake Benath.

The pilot's guild and the salter's guild both have direct connections with the Wytel clan. And the head of the bonding house is also a "friend" of the Wytels (Responsibility for the bonding house and Graneries falls to Prefect Torbir Weijik who appointed the Bond master, Korthel Wytel in 712TR) . So yes - the Wytels are involved, but they don't really want to see the price of shipping go up.

The teamsters

Teamsters, at least in the city, control the use of animals and carts. For a nominal fee a teamster can be hired. Most visiting merchants already hire teamsters full time--especially when in the city. The narrow steets, often crowded with people and animals takes a skilled teamster to manouver a cart without getting it tipped over.

They are being backed only by small merchants and a few clans who have enabled them to give moderate gifts to key senators to speak on their behalf.

Supporting Documents...sort of

I wrote/am writing an article detailing the history of Tharda between 712 and 720 in more detail than what is presented in the Thardic Module. It still needs work - but here's what I have on these two guild items.

Items Before the Senate:



6. If a freeman wishes to join a standing army, under what conditions would he be accepted?

Asked By Lief M Posted to the Harnlist on: 05/14/2000

His Lord (the landholder) could count him as part of his feudal obligation to the republic/kingdom. If so his lord would equip him (or pay for his equipment). If he were to die, or become injured and forced to retire his lord would have to replace him in the republican/kingdom's army with another man. By the way - While Tharda does have the largest standing army on Harn, there is a standing army in practically every kingdom. They are:

In Kanday:

In Melderyn

In Chybisa

In Rethem

In Kaldor:

There are also mercenary troupes that could be considered "standing armies". These troupes range throughout Harn, finding employment in the wild-lands between Kaldor and Tharda, and in Rethem primarily.

Note: Steve McDonald disagrees with my calling the Royal Guard a "standing army" and I quote:

"Well, most of the units you described are Royal Guards, which are really personal guard units (a large fraction of them always travels with the king). I would not call them a standing army, any more than the personal guards that any other noble retained would be called an army (anyone calling their guards an army would probably be punished by the king for attempting to usurp his power, I suspect)." - from his post to the HarnList on 05/15/2000

A standing army is loosely defined as: a permanent armed force. If that is so then there are standing armies in each of the Harnic kingdoms. Granted their forces are much smaller than those of Tharda, but they are standing armies none the less.

Even in a feudal kingdom a freeman may willingly join his lord's military service. The Lord always has the right to decline, but the opportunity can be made available to an aspiring PC through family connections, gaining the lord's attention through heroics or bravery or some such.

In regards to the Royal Armies I willingly admit it would be difficult to join if the freeman did not already have good contacts within the Low Guard.

In regards to the Oslemarch or Chelmarch armies of Kaldor, I would suspect anyone willing to volunteer would be welcomed and trained. Both posts are dangerous and the turnover should be quite high.

In the army of the Earl of Tormau - it would be an interesting campaign to see a freeman willing to join the Earl of Tormau's attempt to overthrow the king of Rethem.


7. Would he need to know how to fight already?

By Lief M Posted to the Harnlist on: 05/14/2000

If he did not know how to fight, the army would train him. If he did know how to fight - he might get an immediate promotion and find himself helping to train others.


8. If he were accepted without experience would they train and equip him? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

By Lief M Posted to the Harnlist on: 05/14/2000

They would train him, yes - but only if the freeman joined the army full-time would they equip him. Landowners must either provide the arms for their men, or provide the kingdom with sufficient monies in lieu of equipment. Alternatively, the landowners can pay a fine if they do not wish to provide their required number of men. The fine is suppose to be large enough to replace the missing men.

All of this information is available in the Kingdom modules (roughly about a page of information in each).


9. What do the Legionnaires in Coranan Do?

Asked by Tim Gill on Tuesday, August 15, 2000 12:17 AM

The Red Legion (stationed only in Coranan City) is well known for acting as a senatorial bodyguard rather than an official legion on guard of the city. The Red Legion patrols the walls, gates and only the upper-class senatorial residences as well as the Senate grounds itself. Different legionnaires are assigned different duties. If a senator wishes to travel from the city to his villa, chances are a squad will be dispatched with him for his protection. The senator's residence(s) would be regularly guarded by another squad, and his family (wife, children) would probably have a single legionnaire as their escort anytime they left the family home.

The Red Legion does _not_ leave the city unless accompanying a senator. Nor do they do the labors (harvesting, building and repairing roads and bridges, etc) of other legionnaires. They are an elite unit and act accordingly. The rest of the legion considers them to be over-paid, under-trained and not trustworthy in the least. Locals actually like them, primarily because they make no pretense of being interested in anything other than protecting the senator (his family, goods, etc).

The senators pride themselves on being subtle. If there is a "less savory" action they need to perform, they use their underlings/clients to perform it. Casual deniability is important. For while senators are very rich and can do almost anything - they still need to maintain a formal appearance.


10. Who Watches Over the Rest of the City?

The rest of the city is patrolled either by local militia units or mercenaries. The Golden Daggers (and this is where my world settles over the cannon information) protect the mercantile district for a regular wage. They wander the streets, and when they find a thief/vandal/troublemaker - they subdue the villain and press charges against them at Caer Coranan. They also stand guard around/near certain businesses. They are, in short, the police force for the district - paid to maintain law and order in a certain district of town.

A day for a mercenary might be something like the following:

6am - up, find partner and head out
7-9am - watch merchants set up their stalls, patrol the marketplace - meet with other Mercenaries to discuss the day's possibilities (what news of this thief? that merchant? any trouble?) Spend some time speaking to the locals
9:45am - see a pick pocket practicing his skills. Catch him - bring him to the Caer for trial later in the week while my partner gets the name and address of the person who was picked. He might be called to trial for evidence, but it's unlikely.
10:45am - back on the street. Stop an oxman before he backs his cart into his neighbor's stall. Find out he's not a teamster.
11:15am - let the local teamsters know there's someone practicing their trade without paying dues. Makes me 10d wealthier.
12:45pm - break fast in the market with a few others, meet back up with my partner.
1:56pm - take the report from a beaten merchant about his assailants. Feign ignorance.
2:48pm - break up an argument between two merchants about prices. Schedule them to appear before the guild of the mangai to settle their disagreement on who rented this very spot. Make them swear upon the face of Halea they'll not fight over it again. They swear. I walk away, they start again. Sigh.
3:48pm - finally leave that argument to settle another one (two weaponcrafters arguing over prices - this could get ugly!)
6:45pm - scare off a looter. I wish all the merchants took their goods home each night.
7:22pm - catch someone half-way up a wall, trying to break into a residence above a shop. Stupid. Chase him for 45 minutes (out of our district) have to club him senseless before we can bring him back.
8:45pm - after he's brought to Caer Coranan, and scheduled for trial, we return for the last 15 minutes of our duty.
9:00pm - home. bed. sleep.

I'd say one day out of five they'd meet for 1/2 a day to practice weapon skills, and one day out of ten they get off.


11. But don't Legionnaires help build roads (a la Nordaka Road Adventures)?

The Nordaka road (leading through dangerous territory to a proposed deep sea port) is a cause of much contention in the regular legion. Too many good men have already died in an attempt to even just survey the area. This is not a standard daily activity of the legion - but rather one very special and dangerous assignment given to the very unlucky.


12. So what's a day like for a legionnaire?

This assumes nothing happens during their day, and that they are assigned to day duty and not a three-day, 2-day or 1-day patrol of the region, or watching from the walls throughout the night.

Time Duty
6am ½ Wake
6:30 1 ½ Warm up Exercises
8am 3 Weapons Training
11am 1 1st Meal
12pm 1 Light Duties
1pm 3 Group Practice
4pm 1 Camp Duties
5pm 1 2nd Meal
6pm 3 Weapons Training
9pm 2 Free Time
11pm 7 Sleep*

* well - usually it's more like 6 (or less) hours of sleep because something almost always happens.

Note- any period of Weapons Training, Light Duties, Free Time, and Group Practice can be replaced by : Sentry (guard the gate, watch from the walls) or Repair Duty (build/repair bridges/roads, help the local farmers, etc).


13. So how does Magic work in your Harn?

The writers of the Harnstuff do not include psionics, miracles or magic in their works because the game system is flexible. While there are rules for divine invocations, rituals and invocations, psionics, and spells - they can be totally removed from the system without changing much. The HanWorld stuff is written so that magic can be added to the game, or not.

Officially the Shek-P'var are a secret society hidden within the various guilds and other careers.

You're absolutely right in that this question is not treated well in the official publications.

There is an introduction to Harn by N. Robin Crossby that explains things on the HarnPage.

Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, the spells and religion capabilities combined make for a very powerful situation. Here's how I play it.

Magic exists.

The Gods walk on Ketheria.

Some never trust a mage, some think all evil is spawned by mages - but there are no witch trials. Witchery is not illegal. Breaking the code of the Shek-P'var however, is. It's not that magic cannot be used in every day life, but that it should not appear to take over every day life.


I don't like all this whoodnhany magical kaboom stuff. Sure, my niece was saved from disease last summer by the local Peonian, but that's different. We pray for Peoni's blessing and protection, so of course when we need it, the priest can make sure its there. But magic? Aren't mages suppose to live in towers? This one works in a smithy as a ferrier. He makes hoes that work, but nothing magical about them. He reads and writes a lot and is a bit funny with his love of old stories - but he's an honest and hard working fellow. Still he's got the mark in his sign, an owl, my brother seen it but I says he's just kidding me. I don't see nothing when I look...

His wife

That ferrier is different. Handsome enough, polite too - but different. He told me my Micheal would make a good ferrier, if he was interested. I said we didn't have much money - but he was willing to barter food for the lad's apprentiship and guild fees. Said he could see a talent for metal working in the lad. I should be happy I suppose, but ... well ... that ferrier is different. It would make the lad a good life, but I just don't know...

Small Town Merchant

These locals are so supersticous and stupid. So the ferrier's a mage, big deal. It's not like he'll make you a magical sword and sell it. Well...at least he won't do that for me. I know of a mage in the next valley who practices life magic. They say he's the best physician anyone's ever seen. Anyone with a sick child that can is willing to pay his fees. That sounds more like something that breaks the laws of the Shek-P'var to me. You don't know them? Hunh. I thought everyone did. At least everyone who works regularly with the guild of the Arcane Lore does. Sure the Shek-P'var are a secret society, but they're about as secretive as the Lia-K'avir. You know they exist, and what they can do - you just don't immediately know all their members. Still, a guild is a guild...

Small Town Folk

Yeah, mages are ok for neighbors. Quiet, calm, well read - they're great folk for helping out and keeping to themselves. Some might blame them when trouble comes around, but I've never seen a folk more willing to help out and work through a problem. When my crops failed they helped me through the season and then helped me put in irrigation canals so that this year my crops have a better chance of succeeding. They got rules, things they can't do - not even for themselves. Personally I think it's that god of puzzles and whatnot they pray to more than anything else. Shame they can't feel Peoni's bounty ...


14. Could a Shenava buy a slave in Tharda?

Owning slaves in Tharda is seen as a mark of status. It proves your wealth almost as well as being a land owner. Having one or two bodyguards (purchased gladiators) in Coranan marks you as one of the elite (a mix of wealthy nobles and merchants). The fact that you may need them is irrelevant when compared to the social standing they provide.

If the Shenava purchases a slave, it is up to him what to do with the slave.

The way I play it, to assure x-gladiator's loyalty - the slave becomes a bonded freeman. The bond is that the master must be protected by the x-gladiator for so many years for half the normal wage. And if the master lives that long either the gladiator is freed with a pension (half the salary he would receive as a free body guard for the length of time they worked). Alternately the master could offer a very low wage, a position in the Shenava's household (into which to retire in x years) and a promise that any children born to the bonded freeman are free from the bond, and clients of the master.

I would recommend you give the Shenava lots to think about. How will he pay for the slave, what kind of relationship does he want with the slave (master-slave? master-bonded freeman? patron-client? etc...). And if he wishes to free the slave, what kind of deal will they enter? Even if the slave remains a slave, their duties must be well defined. "Protect me" is all fine and good, but the master must house, cloth, and feed the slave. And do the slaves follow him everywhere all the time? What are they expected to do when their master goes somewhere where they cannot follow (like a chantry, or a lady's bedroom)? Can he trust them to perform household errands (go to the market, escort the cook when she has money, escort friends/relatives as necessary...)?

Even in Tharda, not everyone accepts the idea of having slaves. Much of the poor see slavery as a way to get services at half-price or better. So the Shenava's friends and colleagues may all react differently to his new acquisition. Women who purchase body guards are seen as prudent by some, and sexually deviant by others. Most women also purchase or hire a matron to accompany them when their bodyguards are around (or buy/hire women body guards) to protect their propriety.


15. What does Schylla & Charibdis mean?

Schylla & Charibdis was the original name of this site. The logo (two dragons) is still named Schylla & Charibdis. Actually - it should be scylla and charybdis.

Scylla \Scyl"la\, n. Charybdis \Cha*ryb"dis\, n. [L., Gr. ?.]

Scylla and Charybdis, in Greek mythology, two sea monsters dwelling on the opposite sides of a narrow strait, the personification of the dangers of navigation near the rocks and eddies. Scylla was a horrible creature with 12 feet and 6 long necks, each bearing a head with 3 rows of teeth, with which she devoured any prey that came within reach; she lived in a cave on a cliff. Across the strait, opposite her, was a large fig tree under which Charybdis, the whirlpool, dwelt, sucking in and belching forth the waters of the sea three times daily, engulfing anything that came near. When the Greek hero Odysseus passed between them, he was able to avoid Charybdis, but Scylla seized six men from his ship and devoured them. In later times, the geographical position of this dangerous passage was believed to be the Strait of Messina between Italy and Sicily, with Scylla on the Italian side. Scylla, originally a beautiful maiden loved by a sea god, had been transformed into a monster by her jealous rival, the sorceress Circe.

"Scylla and Charybdis," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2000 http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

These two beasts of greek mythology became a common way of saying that both choices given would damn the chooser. English versions of this saying include:

So what does the name mean to me? Schylla (or Scylla) is the Players - a multi-headed monster that is both unpredictable and downright dangerous. Charibdis (or Charybdis) is the GM, a hard place to be.


16. Who is the Geminost commander.

The Geminost forces (that is the provincial legion) are led by the commanding officer in Fobin, Triberties Linari Primus Horrik Barral. The Legate (marshal) is in Geishtei. The garrison commandre at Geishtei is ....


17. Does Chivlary Exist in Tharda

Chivalry does indeed exist in Tharda. The right to bear arms (which is associated to chivlary) is merely bent, rather than broken by Tharda's Oligarchy of Clans. The nobles (land owners) can neither train private armies nor fortify their homes without senatorial approval. But this does not stop the sons of nobles from claiming knighthood. In Tharda, knighthood is granted to:

Of the three, the latter is the most difficult to prove. While it could be that all mercenary knights are indeed bastards, unacknowledged or not - it is more reasonable that at least some mercenary knights are actually non-noble born. Yup - they're faking it.

While the rules of Chivalry define who may carry which weapon, it is unwise to assume that the person weilding one of the Chivlaric weapons does _not_ know how to weild it just because they are not noble born. YCMD.

IMC officers are either noble born, or risen from the ranks. If the latter there should be an associated rise in social class - but the latter is very expensive and sometimes is omitted until the officer retires, in an attempt to either lessen the cost or garner more money before having to pay this social tax to the senate. Those who are risen from the ranks are given the right to bear any arm they please. This special dispensation is, by its nature extended to periods when the officer is off duty as well as on, although when off duty they are not suppose to wear the uniform. This rule is very rarely patroled.

A legionnaire is also given the right to bear arms, but he (or she) is treated more as a man-at-arms, with the right to bear arms given to them from the legion. Again they are not suppose to bear arms or wear the uniform when off duty, but if the officer's are rarely patrolled, then it must be said that legionnaires are never patrolled for this rule.


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