Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

This is where you can talk about HârnWorld places, people, religion, magic, society and cultures, etc. Ask questions about towns and cities, ruins, mines, and gargun nests, mysterious map references, and battle sites. Can be published commercially or by fans, it doesn't matter.

Moderator: Spartan

Post Reply
Message
Author
rdelorme10
Woodward
Woodward
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:08 am

Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#1 Post by rdelorme10 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:56 am

I would like to thank by Peter Fauconnier (macgorgor) and Christophe Jaureguiberry (Roland de Ronceveaux) for this work. But was wondering if they intend to update to reflect the information in the newer version of Kingdom of Kaldor.

On page 29 Kaldor: It states that "Baron Indama, in his capacity as Sheriff of Neph, has responded by founding a village and demanding a toll at the bridge". The Maps publish in the "Kingdom of Kaldor" put the village on the west side of the Nephen river and south of the bridge. The new maps put the bridge south of the Kareka River. The publication puts a way station and village on the east side of the Nephen River: where is very exposed to attack; places the Bridge north of a River called the "Bodenrill".

I plan to use most of this publication, but intend to draw a new map and rearrange the locations to fit the larger map. There will need to be some tension with the Earl of Balm merchants that just received a hefty fine from the Sheriff of Neph and were forced to move their "illegal" encampment to the new village.

The Sheriff: "I have never seen such blatantly illegal behavior by an agent of a pier of the realm: theft of royal lands, tax evasion, some might call this treason. That dock is on ROYAL LANDS and was built without permission. I will be lenient as I believe you did not mean to commit treason: that will be a 10£ fine and the building must go. You may dismantle it or I will burn it next week. Know if you want a dock and warehouse, the King has some land available in a new village on the west bank just south of the bridge. You will owe prober rent, acquire a proper license, pay dockage fees. ANY questions?

MDMann
Constable
Constable
Posts: 2201
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 12:03 am
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#2 Post by MDMann » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:18 am

Indeed. He can't hope to take on Balim of course, but that doesn't mean he won't try and fail, very badly. Even with the support of Curo his chances are bleak. Of course, Curo could survive the attempt politically, whilst the same may not be true of Indama. Great tension. Also, the village is over the Neph and outside of his jurisdiction....
Per Sir Veer.

User avatar
Sageryne
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:46 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#3 Post by Sageryne » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:51 am

Hi rdelorme10,

I don't claim to speak for Peter or Christophe. I think they were both rather put out by the changes that came out with Kaldor v2. The writers team tried their best to insert more neutral language into the draft of Kaldor v2 that would have left an opening for the fanon article to still work. The publisher did not agree and didn't want to "cater to fanon", so Kaldor v2 was published as you see now.

Of course Peter and Christophe had put a great deal of work into the project and were understandably upset to be "canon bombed" shortly after releasing this excellent fanon article. So, I doubt you will see any change after such a long period.

Your mileage may vary.

- Kerry
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

User avatar
Sageryne
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:46 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#4 Post by Sageryne » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:51 am

Hi rdelorme10,
The Sheriff: "I have never seen such blatantly illegal behavior by an agent of a pier of the realm: theft of royal lands, tax evasion, some might call this treason. That dock is on ROYAL LANDS and was built without permission. I will be lenient as I believe you did not mean to commit treason: that will be a 10£ fine and the building must go. You may dismantle it or I will burn it next week. Know if you want a dock and warehouse, the King has some land available in a new village on the west bank just south of the bridge. You will owe prober rent, acquire a proper license, pay dockage fees. ANY questions?
That would be a very aggressive and dangerous move against the Chancellor of the Exchequer and cousin of the king, however Sheriff (Baron) Chimin Indama is "not noted for this mental agility" (Kaldor 29).

If I was playing Balim, the Chancellor of the Exhequer and in charge of all the tax collectors, I would think that a FULL and VIGOROUS audit of every one of the Baron's manors is in order. Of course, it would be found that Baron Indama had been underpaying his taxes to the tune of £20.

If that did not get through to the Baron, then perhaps a full audit of all his activities as Sheriff. Of course if it was determined that the Baron had been WILFULLY cheating the crown of its rightful revenues (I am sure some irregularity could be found), then he could be accused of Larceny...which, when committed against the crown is a felony.

For a baron to take on an earl (especially one of the three most powerful members of the Privy Council) would be foolish. He would have to be more subtle than that.

Just my 2d,

- Kerry
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

pfstrack
Beadle
Beadle
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:53 am

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#5 Post by pfstrack » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:09 am

Sageryne wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:51 am
Hi rdelorme10,

I don't claim to speak for Peter or Christophe. I think they were both rather put out by the changes that came out with Kaldor v2. The writers team tried their best to insert more neutral language into the draft of Kaldor v2 that would have left an opening for the fanon article to still work. The publisher did not agree and didn't want to "cater to fanon", so Kaldor v2 was published as you see now.

Of course Peter and Christophe had put a great deal of work into the project and were understandably upset to be "canon bombed" shortly after releasing this excellent fanon article. So, I doubt you will see any change after such a long period.

Your mileage may vary.

- Kerry
Personally I use the fanon article and ignore the paragraph in the Getha entry in Kaldor v2 for my pHarn, because I like the fanon article better. Instead, I have the Baron aggressively patrolling the Silver Way west of the bridge, and his men sometimes charge “tolls” for those they encounter on the road. This doesn’t actually help the situation with the merchants much.

User avatar
9ofSwords
Woodward
Woodward
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#6 Post by 9ofSwords » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:29 am

If I may, a clarifying question here about Toll Collectors. They're under the jurisdiction of the Exchequer [Kaldor 17]. Is there an employee of the Exchequer at every toll location? Are they present at just certain locations directly controlled by the Exchequer, and not a Sheriff, etc.? Or do they travel around to assess the tolls collected, in an attempt to make sure it all makes its way to the treasury?

Now, for the moment I consider only CGI's Kaldor, excluding the Naniom Bridge fanon. Regardless which role Toll Collectors play, it seems to me that at the very least, Earl Dariune will be sure to dispatch an official Toll Collector to Naniom Bridge to oversee Baron Indama's collections there . . . and to clearly point out to Indama that "whatever you do, the money will still pass through my hands." . . . Which begs the question: How would Indama (or Lady Myrtis Curo) ever have imagined this to be a stick in Dariune's eye, or a good way to go about gaining permission to fortify Naniom?

User avatar
Sageryne
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:46 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#7 Post by Sageryne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:53 am

Hi 9ofswords,

Good question. I don't think that there is much canon detail on how this works (not that I ever remember reading).

Looking at Kaldor 17, it would seem that the toll collectors work directly for the Exchequer Clerks (and thus the Chief Clerk of the Exchequer). The way I interpret that (YMMV) is that the toll collector works for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So, there would be an exchequer employee at each toll booth. The tolls would flow directly from the toll booth to the King's coffers without any involvement of the local sheriff.

Now, what MIGHT happen, is that the toll booths are "farmed", i.e. the crown estimates how much a given toll booth will earn and then it sells the right to operate the toll booth for that estimated revenue. The person who buys the right to operate it for a year does so with the intent to gather more in tolls that they paid, so the difference is their profit.

The "farmer" could be the Sheriff. He might be (in effect) a sub-contracted toll collector.

Still, I agree with you, if Baron of Getha is trying to put the blocks to the Earl of Balim, it is unlikely to have the desired result of getting permission to fortify the village.

If anything, I could see Dariune recommending to the king that it be given to the Lady of Paladins just to screw over Indama.

- Kerry
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

User avatar
9ofSwords
Woodward
Woodward
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#8 Post by 9ofSwords » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:03 am

In Castles of Harn there are 2 instances where tolls are discussed: Geda & Gythrun. In both cases the lord of those castles is allowed to keep 50% of revenues in exchange for the responsibility of collecting the tolls. I imagine that's a profitable arrangement. I seem to recall elsewhere that a lord was allowed to collect a toll and keep some portion of the revenues toward a building project -- I can't find that mention at the moment.

If, in Indama's case, he had in fact been granted permission by Miginath to collect a toll at Naniom and to keep 50% of the revenues toward, say, construction of a village and securing the bridge, then yes it would seem he has the king's favor in this venture, and maybe has his foot in the door on the subject of crenelation.

Could this be an unwritten assumption CGI is making?
Do Sheriffs even have authority on their own to establish tolls?

User avatar
bbailey
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:10 am
Location: Wentzville, Missouri (near St. Louis)

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#9 Post by bbailey » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:14 am

As mentioned in the Taxes and Tolls section of HârnWorld (page 27 in 3rd ed.): "Government tollhouses exist along most major roads and tolls are often charged by various parties, not always legitimately, at bridges, fords, etc. "

A sheriff doesn't need external authority to establish tolls if for no other reason than who's going to stop him. When crossing the bridge, is a mercantyler going to ask to see a royal license or other document that legitimizes the toll or will he simply accept that the sheriff has the right to collect one? And if he suspects or even knows the sheriff doesn't have a royal mandate, what's he going to do, who's he going to complain to?

User avatar
9ofSwords
Woodward
Woodward
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#10 Post by 9ofSwords » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:04 am

bbailey wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:14 am
A sheriff doesn't need external authority to establish tolls if for no other reason than who's going to stop him. When crossing the bridge, is a mercantyler going to ask to see a royal license or other document that legitimizes the toll or will he simply accept that the sheriff has the right to collect one? And if he suspects or even knows the sheriff doesn't have a royal mandate, what's he going to do, who's he going to complain to?
Sure, as a one-off incident, that holds true. But if a sufficient number of nobles decide for themselves that along any given route they can extract a toll (imagine that the Sheriff of Vemion decides to also collect a toll at the East end of Naniom Bridge), it will take a toll on trade and be cause for complaint from the Mangai.

In any case, we're not talking about a mercantyler against a sheriff. We're talking about a sheriff against an earl who is also the Chancelor of the Exchequer. Earl Dariune has every incentive 1) to keep an eye on what's going on at Naniom, and 2) to foil any development there that might adversely affect trade and coin coming through Kiban. . . And that may mean pointing out to the King that Indama has decided to collect a toll without authorization from the crown.

User avatar
Targan
Yeoman
Yeoman
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:58 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#11 Post by Targan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:42 pm

bbailey wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:14 am
And if he suspects or even knows the sheriff doesn't have a royal mandate, what's he going to do, who's he going to complain to?
9ofSwords wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:04 am
But if a sufficient number of nobles decide for themselves that along any given route they can extract a toll (imagine that the Sheriff of Vemion decides to also collect a toll at the East end of Naniom Bridge), it will take a toll on trade and be cause for complaint from the Mangai.
That's who he's going to complain to. And the Mangai are very good at determining what kind of pressure they can exert that will get them the result they want. They're also very good at correctly judging which battles they can win and which they can't.
Sent from my PC using my keyboard

User avatar
9ofSwords
Woodward
Woodward
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#12 Post by 9ofSwords » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:04 am

I'd like to return to rdelorme10's original idea of keeping both fanon and canon.
rdelorme10 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:56 am
I plan to use most of this publication, but intend to draw a new map and rearrange the locations to fit the larger map.
The fanon local map is a good match to the original Kingdom of Kaldor map. There is still plenty of wiggle room moving from the more recent Atlas Harnica regional map to the fanon local map, to justify keeping the fanon local map just the way it is . . . aside from perhaps renaming Bodenrill as Kareka.

If Indama's seasonal outpost is just a building or two, then it/they could fit anywhere along the Silver Way west of the bridge. On the fanon map, [6c] might be a good location, as they might be able to use stones and/or existing foundations from the ruins.

Indama wants to dissuade river transport from Naniom, south to Kiban, so he won't likely build his own dock on the west shore of the Nephen. If he were to do that, the best location on the fanon map would probably be near the Khuzan lodge, at [2].
rdelorme10 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:56 am
The publication puts a way station and village on the east side of the Nephen River: where is very exposed to attack
I'd argue that Taelda or gargun could just as easily come down either side of the Nephen, so the fanon's placement of the waystation is fine as is. Regardless on which side of the river it is it won't stand against a full-scale attack by anyone. What's more, keeping it on the East side, out of Indama's jurisdiction, sets up the standoff between Indama/Curo/Tashal Mangai and Dariune/Kiban Mangai.

So let's imagine this standoff. Sheriff Indama builds a waystation on the West side of Naniom. At some point I'd expect that men-at-arms bearing the Sheriff's arms will show up at the bridge, and inform the Kiban Mangai mercenaries there that they have no authority to collect a toll and must vacate the bridge. What is the likely outcome?

Waymaster Arton of Ceynah will be summoned to the bridge. He'll show every politeness "Of course, as you are the sheriffs men, you may pass over the bridge free of charge, but the Kiban Mangai mans this bridge under the authority of Earl Dariune. I'll have to receive word from Kiban that we are to turn over the bridge." etc. etc. Would it come to blows? Could Indama's men intimidate Arton into turning over the bridge?

If not, then both camps will likely dig in their heels, but just short of violence. Indama's men will extract the toll from all east-bound caravans, and then personally accompany them over the bridge, extending their privilege to the entire caravan. The Kiban Mangai camp will receive the toll from west-bound traffic over the bridge.

Meanwhile the dispute will make its way to Tashal and the King. It's still probably a long-shot that this will resolve in Indama's favor, but he is making the point that he has more right to collect a toll at Naniom than does the Kiban Mangai, and he'll have the Tashal Mangai supporting him.

rdelorme10
Woodward
Woodward
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:08 am

Re: Namion Bridge (On Lythia.com)

#13 Post by rdelorme10 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:27 pm

Your points about the Exchequer collecting the toll may be correct, but the Sherriff may if fact have permission of the King. All he had to do was ask the King if he can collect a toll for the purpose maintaining the bridge. Tolls for bridge maintenance were generally collect locally and not turned over to the Crown; it was a fee for service: maintaining the bridge. Several nobles charge tolls separate from the royal tolls (Nenda for example)

The Sherriff would win the issue over the "illegal" merchantyer establishment on Royal lands and the Earl of Balim would not take action against the Sherriff as he is legally correct: he would be obligated to publically support the Sherriff. The Sherriff's action was not a direct action against the Earl of Balim and was done in the name of the KING. Thus the earl has no ground to publically dispute the Sherriff. In feudal society the he Exchequer does not conduct audits, he is the treasurer: Audits are the job of the Chancellor and enforcement of the laws is the job of the Sherriff. Attempting to retaliate against a royal Sherriff would be very near treason as it would be seen as an assault on the crown and the king would be forced to side with the Sherriff and dismiss the Exchequer: the Earl of Balim knows this.

I also would point out that Chancellor is generally seen as the highest royal official and any disputes between royal officials would be mediated by either the chancellor or the king. Officials do not take direct action against each other, very bad form.

The most likely thing would be for the merchants to appeal to the crown and the Earl of Balim plead for leniency after all its all just a misunderstanding. The Earl Curo might actually join in the plead for leniency while point out the whole mess could have been avoided if Sherriff had the means to enforce the King's Law along the Silver way. But before any actual plead before the crown, all sides would most likely have worked out a deal.

In feudal politics the major clans do not want any on clan to gain too much power and threaten their position. In Kaldor, the Earl of Balim would be very close to having the other nobles unite against him. The King might see this, but I doubt the earl does.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sageryne and 1 guest