Super Heavy Foot combat

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AndersArvidsson
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Super Heavy Foot combat

#1 Post by AndersArvidsson » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:57 pm

The effect of articulated plate (or kurbul) on combat. It's more about getting an opportunity to hit the spring in the visor, a gap in the armour, or wrestle the opponent to get an opening at the back or inside of the legs, butt or groin. The overlapping armour values for padded, mail and plate are not unreasonable.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q

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Pierce
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Re: Super Heavy Foot combat

#2 Post by Pierce » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:01 am

I don't think I would put that kind of faith in kurbul. Alexander The Great took an infamous arrow wound through his breastplate (commonly thought to be hardened waxed leather) that plagued him for the rest of his life. Even plate could be punctured by bodkin tipped arrows and quarrels, museums are full of examples. Other weapons like flanged maces were designed to punch and peel metal like an old style can opener, pressing the metal back into the wound to cripple the wearer. Though the preferred method seemed to be to overpower and capture an enemy in plate, charging their rich family a hefty ransom to get their son back.

Isn't history fun? :D

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Revus
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Re: Super Heavy Foot combat

#3 Post by Revus » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:19 am

Its hard enough to kill anyone in plate as it is :)

And the armor values we're using already factor in some level
of presumed padding, besides don't want to put the few with
access to this stuff too out of reach compared with other PCs.

As one whose had to try to actually kill (or at least defeat, mildly annoy,
or deter) plate-clad PCs in RPTs on occasion, its actually quite frustrating
that even staff can't kill some of these types even when trying to do so,
or at least deter them from pushing forward when reality of the situation says
that they shouldn't/wouldn't be able to, fact is you often can't stop them without
resorting to magic/rituals (that often would be out of place given the circumstance)
or loading in numbers of opponents that are out of whack with reality and
too unwieldly to keep control of due to text spam.

So before any further coding to make up-armored humvee PC's,
I'd want work done to (reliably, cuz there is a method but it currently
crashes the game at times) enable the GM's of this game to effectively
harm/force back/steer in one way or another as needed, the heavily-armored
PC's that we already have without resorting to ooc mystical stuff thats
out of place.

So to use the currently available option, the "pain" command which can
be combined with any use of echo (or pecho) desired to simulate something
bad happening (lets say, a catapult shot landing amongst the party, or a volley
of arrows, javelins, whatever) it can cause a variety of wound types on either
an individual or a room (i think, havent tested that in awhile) but if your math
is slightly off and you KO/kill the person or NPC it crashes the MUD.

Crashes in large combat RPTs are no good, they scatter or relocate stayputs,
refresh health on PCs that were nearly dead (while often leaving their NPC
opponents still injured, grrr.) or in cases where enemies werent stayputs
themselves, end up reloading opponents that were already defeated.

So although it might be possible to just load a roadblock object that prevents
movement in a certain direction, and I have done so when it makes sense (using
actual obstacles that force the players to take time to move them, or caltrops
to prevent use of mounts,etc) I only like to do that kind of thing in cases where
its in-character and a reasonable thing the enemy might have thought of.
Just throwing an object thats not too relevant to the situation somewhere to
stop movement in an ooc way is well, ooc, and ends up being a bunch of petitions
back and forth with players about why/how they can't go somewhere rather than
roleplay.

And of course roadblocks and obstacles can prevent advancement but do nothing
to move a party back if that makes sense, if they simply would be outmatched
but theres no way in the available game mechanics for me to show them how
outmatched they are without loading fifty enemies or doing something cheesy
like dropping an "fifty enemies stand here" object that they can't engage.

A volley of a couple dozen arrows that takes the stuffing out of a bunch of them
and their meat shield NPCs works, but as mentioned, can easily crash the game
if not careful, and its hard to be careful when stuff is happening at a fast pace
and you need to check the health of a party and their ten npcs before rolling out
your deterrents. So in short, not interested in emboldening them any further, lol.

Would rather see work done to patch up the pain command, and maybe add the
ability to alter a room dynamically to be shall we say less hospitable to PC/NPC
presence. Change an rsector or add a rflag and the room is suddenly putting
out cold,heat,falling rock,missile damage to anyone fool enough to keep standing
in it, etc. that would be neat.

Not directly relevant to the original post, but I think a good explanation of why
super heavy armored PCs are not beneficial to combat RPT's at the moment, generally.

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Re: Super Heavy Foot combat

#4 Post by Aurelius » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:40 am

Something like eleven vials of halbise were consumed in that one RPT. :P

The armour depicted in the video is perhaps 150 or so years ahead of Harnic technological standards, I think? More articulated parts than a Harnic set would have, less reliance on mail to cover joints. Harn is mired in a state of technological stagnation in any case.

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Revus
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Re: Super Heavy Foot combat

#5 Post by Revus » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Ha, thats just one of many examples. Even the armor and higher skill
of PCs versus the NPC opposing forces alone does most of the job of
making defense an insurmountable task for NPC defenders, but when
you add 10+ NPCs guarding/rescuing the party and chemicals yeah,
even moreso. Though coded delays have made potions less useful
anyway, you can pretty much use one each at most per battle.

And yeah the depicted knight in the video is centuries ahead,
the Royal Armouries produced a series of clips on historically
correct 11th to 15th century depictions of knightly kit, the 11th
century one best represents what should be considered "typical"
for a ordinary feudal knight in Harshlands, that is, a padded longshirt
(assumed present in existing armor), mail, some kind of gorget, helm
and kite shield, ordinarily. Though obviously not the only options as we
do have some later pieces built in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ofqIc1g1nI

Their 13th century clip might make use of some of our later period
pieces and could probably give an idea of what a more modern knight
might obtain.. including quilt gambeson, addition of sleeves, greathelm,
and heater shield. Routine use of plate wouldn't come until later on but
we have it ahead of schedule, it does mention the coat of plates however
so even then some use of plated armor over the mail was available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy_ztGP1oNU

Their 14th century example goes full plate, so we're not there yet,
our richest knights would be somewhere in between the 13th and
14th century examples, and poorer ones at the 11th century one.

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Re: Super Heavy Foot combat

#6 Post by AndersArvidsson » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:08 pm

Which still makes the interesting part that a heavily armoured opponent is best grappled, and killed with a dagger. Either in the eyes, or under the armour to the arteries in the thighs. Though you need to be pretty well equipped to get into that range "safely".

Or shot with arrows.

After those alternatives something crushing on the soft/yielding pieces of armour, like mail or anything not rigid like kurbul or plate.

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Re: Super Heavy Foot combat

#7 Post by blackhorde » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:34 am

Revus wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:19 am
Would rather see work done to patch up the pain command
You might want to do some testing to see if this is still a problem. Think I fixed this when I fixed rituals that did multiple waves of damage and stopped them from crashing. If you find there is a crash just give me repro steps so I can isolate the problem. :)
Fred Ellis aka Blackhorde

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