Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

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blackhorde
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Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#1 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:24 am

Has there been a discussion over the numbers in this article?

Taking nearly five years to clear an acre of average woods seems extreme doesn't it?
Dense Woods 0.06 man days per square foot
Woods 0.04 man days per square foot
Open 0.02 man days per square foot

Example -
An acre is 43,560 sq ft. so it would take 1,742.5 man days to clear
or almost 5 years working alone.
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#2 Post by Krazma » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:23 am

That doesn’t seem at all extreme to me.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#3 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:44 am

Let's take a square acre. It's 208 ft on a side roughly. Or roughly 70 yards long on a side or 23 paces on a side. So you take 23 paces and you've traveled across this acre ...

Now we're saying it takes 5 years to clear this acre of trees? Say there are 500 trees in Forest acre and 250 for Woods, maybe 50 trees (10% of area) for Open.
Using following reference. https://www.state.sc.us/forest/nurspa.htm

That's 50 trees a year working in Woods. Or a week for each tree. Using 360 days in a Harnic year.

A week to clear one tree? What numbers am I missing here?
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#4 Post by pokep » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:57 am

500 trees in an acre? Those had better be pretty small trees. If they are oak trees, and generally mature, 50 is a more reasonable number. A tree farmer is going to aim for about 36 mature oaks per acre. (They plant far more, then cull them down as they grow.)

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#5 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:01 am

pokep wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:57 am
A tree farmer is going to aim for about 36 mature oaks per acre.
I did cite a source. Would be helpful if you did the same. :)
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#6 Post by Rothesay » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:35 am

blackhorde wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:24 am
Has there been a discussion over the numbers in this article?

Taking nearly five years to clear an acre of average woods seems extreme doesn't it?
It seems quite extreme to me. Perhaps the two sets of manor rules can help, even though they do not agree on this point:

EH Manor - clear one acre takes 100 days of labor
HarnManor - clear on acre takes 30 days of labor

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#7 Post by Targan » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:44 am

We'd better get Eder in on this discussion. He'd be frothing at the mouth 8)
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#8 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:56 am

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:35 am
HarnManor - clear on acre takes 30 days of labor
Which page is that and does it have variations for type of area being cleared?
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#9 Post by pokep » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:18 am

blackhorde wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:01 am
pokep wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:57 am
A tree farmer is going to aim for about 36 mature oaks per acre.
I did cite a source. Would be helpful if you did the same. :)
If you just google "oak trees per acre" you'll get several. Your problem is that you were looking at a chart of how many you plant, without realizing that 90+% get culled well before maturity.
Allow 10' spacing for planted hardwood saplings. This gives you approximately 440 trees per acre. Maintain this spacing until the trees reach 8" in diameter, then thin to increase spacing to 20'. At 20" diameter, crop trees (either planted or in the woods) should have 35' of space between them, leaving about 36 per acre, plus under-growth shrubs and saplings. When trees reach 30" diameter, increase the distance to 50', leaving 16-20 per acre until harvest.
https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials- ... for-profit

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#10 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:33 am

pokep wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:18 am
Your problem is that you were looking at a chart of how many you plant, without realizing that 90+% get culled well before maturity.
Allow 10' spacing for planted hardwood saplings. This gives you approximately 440 trees per acre. Maintain this spacing until the trees reach 8" in diameter, then thin to increase spacing to 20'. At 20" diameter, crop trees (either planted or in the woods) should have 35' of space between them, leaving about 36 per acre, plus under-growth shrubs and saplings. When trees reach 30" diameter, increase the distance to 50', leaving 16-20 per acre until harvest.
https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials- ... for-profit
Very nice. But that just makes my initial problem with the article worse. Heh. Taking five years to cut down a few dozen trees is even more ludicrous.
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#11 Post by Rothesay » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:20 am

blackhorde wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:56 am
Rothesay wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:35 am
HarnManor - clear on acre takes 30 days of labor
Which page is that and does it have variations for type of area being cleared?
Page 25. Not that I noticed - it's under Assart.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#12 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:23 am

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:20 am
Page 25. Not that I noticed - it's under Assart.
Ah of course. Thank you, sir.
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#13 Post by Krazma » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:48 am

If you can travel 208 feet in 23 paces, you’re a giant, so perhaps it doesn’t take you as long to fell trees, cut wood, pull up roots, etc. But for an ordinary human with no power tools and working alone, it’s quite a task.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#14 Post by Rothesay » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:42 pm

Krazma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:48 am
If you can travel 208 feet in 23 paces, you’re a giant, so perhaps it doesn’t take you as long to fell trees, cut wood, pull up roots, etc. But for an ordinary human with no power tools and working alone, it’s quite a task.
I tend to agree on the pacing aspect - a large step might be six feet(!) - but I think the point remains that it isn't that big a space. The notion that it would take five years for one person to clear an acre simply isn’t credible. Of course, felling trees isn’t the real task - removing stumps is.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#15 Post by Targan » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:00 pm

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:42 pm
Of course, felling trees isn’t the real task - removing stumps is.
When I was in college and the Army Reserves I was also a licenced shotfirer (explosives technician). Lemme tell you about moving tree stumps :onfire: :)
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#16 Post by El Jefe Grande » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:02 pm

I have found that bulldozers work just fine for clearing trees and stumps.😎

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#17 Post by Krazma » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:29 pm

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:42 pm
Krazma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:48 am
If you can travel 208 feet in 23 paces, you’re a giant, so perhaps it doesn’t take you as long to fell trees, cut wood, pull up roots, etc. But for an ordinary human with no power tools and working alone, it’s quite a task.
I tend to agree on the pacing aspect - a large step might be six feet(!) - but I think the point remains that it isn't that big a space. The notion that it would take five years for one person to clear an acre simply isn’t credible. Of course, felling trees isn’t the real task - removing stumps is.
Exactly, it involves a lot more than simply chopping down trees.

In any event, to the original question, if it seems too extreme to you, try adding another decimal place to the number.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#18 Post by Rothesay » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:34 pm

I dunno, I watched my neighbor remove a single stump about three feet across with an axe in about two hours. (He has a real animus towards trees - cut all the ones on his property down.) He has a quarter acre.

Let's assume Pokep's figure of about 30-40 mature growth trees on an acre. Let's even double that to assume a dense forest. So that is 80 trees. If it took my strange neighbor two hours to remove a stump, and let's say another hour to cut the actual tree down. One more to haul the wood away, so that's 4 hours per tree. (Processing into firewood will take longer.) 240 hours, or thirty days at 8 hours a day. Hey, I got to HarnManor without even trying. (Boy are some people gonna hate that! :lol: )

I just don't see it taking five years to clearcut an acre. 8)

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#19 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:49 pm

Krazma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:29 pm
In any event, to the original question, if it seems too extreme to you, try adding another decimal place to the number.
I like detailed systems and it seemed the writer of the article took some time putting it together so I was just hoping someone on the forum might have known how they came by their numbers.
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#20 Post by Rothesay » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:57 pm

blackhorde wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:49 pm
Krazma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:29 pm
In any event, to the original question, if it seems too extreme to you, try adding another decimal place to the number.
I like detailed systems and it seemed the writer of the article took some time putting it together so I was just hoping someone on the forum might have known how they came by their numbers.
Glancing at the article, perhaps Joe Adams will opine. The numbers don't seem to have a source.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#21 Post by pokep » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:29 pm

It all seems like nonsense to me. You rarely just clear forest to plant grain in one go. First you cut the trees (and get the revenues for the lumber and firewood) and just drag out the brush. You let the hogs and goats at it for a while, then let it go to pasture - maybe planting some soil-building plants like peas in places. After the stumps have rotted a while you clear it out for plowing - maybe a couple years after you started. The labor cost is all but lost in the budget.

Or it's impossible. If the manor is well-established, the woods are left to woods for good reason - the land is too stony/wet/sandy/etc.. for cropland. That's the way of farming - almost everything is either easy or impossible, and the two categories usually alternate randomly.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#22 Post by blackhorde » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:39 pm

pokep wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:29 pm
It all seems like nonsense to me.
The article is about manor building. So clearing lands for palisades, buildings, then fields, etc.
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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#23 Post by APrewett » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:50 pm

FYI; Chivalry and Sorcery 3rd Ed had material on construction and land clearing

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#24 Post by pokep » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:38 am

blackhorde wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:39 pm
pokep wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:29 pm
It all seems like nonsense to me.
The article is about manor building. So clearing lands for palisades, buildings, then fields, etc.
The point's the same. Some land is easy - it gets planted first. Some is hard - you let the stumps rot for quite a while longer. Overall, clearing land requires more patience than labor.

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Re: Thonahexus 8 Manor Building

#25 Post by Leitchy » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:28 am

Stumps can take a very, VERY long time to pull out. Rothesay, your neighbour must have been a superhero of some kind. Or the tree had a particularly small tap root or the soil was very deep. Most farmers who are clearing stumps, and have the assistance of a tractor, take a day or two to shift a big stump. Bulldozers make short work of things, but the best a Harnic farmer can manage is an ox team. If the soil is even a little bit rocky, you've got a world of hurt.

If you leave the stumps to rot, you're looking at 5-10 years minimum for biggish trees, and it also depends on the tree. I'm only taking my own small acreage into account; I cut down an apple tree, maybe 15-20cm diameter, at ground level about a year after I bought my place. I left the stump in place, but 8 years later and the stump is still quite solid and causing problems for my mower! Meanwhile a pine tree I cut down about 5 years ago, maybe 60-80cm across, is almost completely gone.
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