Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

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GarryHamlin
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Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#1 Post by GarryHamlin » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:29 am

1. For game purposes, is there/should there be a threshold level of ML proficiency expected before a character gains master status in a guild? (ML 50? ML 75?) Or are there just too many extraneous social factors involved in that outcome to set an artificial threshold? Clearly, at some point a clumsy practitioner is going to become an embarrassment to the point where a guild needs to take action to protect its reputation. But should there any game measure of skill status for apprentice vs. journeyman vs. master?

2. What game mechanism might to used to reflect the recipient's judgment of quality? E.g., a bard in a tavern may get a critical success on a dice roll for singing, but the audience may still think, however mistakenly, that he sucks. (The bard can't very well defend himself by saying - look at the damn dice man, that was a CS!) But people sometimes fail to appreciate quality when they see it.

Thoughts?

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#2 Post by Peter the skald » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:44 am

1. No guarantee of mastership as reflection of skill due to social factors...but the higher one gets the more noticable perpetual apprenticeship will be... I believe ml 70/75 is a rough guide of mastery if not mastership.

2. Skill rolls reflect a level of success within the parameters of that skill....so a cs in one singing style will always be a critical success even if folk hate that style. However, you can reduce the probabilty of that success by modifying for circumstance/taste/prejudice. However, a person who calls a performance bad when it is not will stick out in the crowd....like all those folk that diss Beyoncé because they dislike her style or stance....when we all know she is one of the greatest performers of all time.
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#3 Post by Derfman » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:45 am

I'll second what Peter said.

IMHO ML70 should be the minimum ML for promotion to 'Master' rank ==IF== no other special factors are involved.
....other special factors are OFTEN involved, at least to a small level.
For example, a journeyman that has had a solid positive relationship with the masters he has worked for could easily slide by with ML65 or maybe even ML60. But any lower, and even if the masters he worked for like him, some of the more serious ones might have qualms signing off on his master's papers.
....then of course there is family influence, outright bribery, etc.....
....and a variety of factors that could work against the journeyman too.......

As for skill rolls, a vital point:
A skill roll determines (usually) how well a character succeeded as what he 'intended to do'.
A skill roll (usually) does NOT determine how positive the result is, although the roll is usually a very large 'part' of that.
Live entertainers 'read' their audience and adjust accordingly (Simple perception roll, VERY often with bonuses for already knowing a bit about the audience).

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#4 Post by Leitchy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:20 am

I'm with Peter on the interpretation of the dice roll; if a performer has a skill level of 70% but the audience are hostile for whatever reason, he may get a significant penalty to his skill roll. Let's say 50% (that's harsh!).

Now his EML is 20%; he make the roll and gets a CS (he rolls 10)...so the audience are impressed despite their hostility. There may be an individual or two whose hostility knows no bounds, but they probably wouldn't stick around to listen anyway. But the audience as a whole...and as one unit...rate the performance highly.

A critical success is just that; you can't take that away from the player. You can rule that no roll is possible because the crowd is too hostile and legging it away is a better option than trying to score an unlikely CS. You can make it very tough by imposing very high penalties...but once done, the result is the result. :)
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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#5 Post by Eder » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:55 am

GarryHamlin wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:29 am
1. For game purposes, is there/should there be a threshold level of ML proficiency expected before a character gains master status in a guild? (ML 50? ML 75?) Or are there just too many extraneous social factors involved in that outcome to set an artificial threshold? Clearly, at some point a clumsy practitioner is going to become an embarrassment to the point where a guild needs to take action to protect its reputation. But should there any game measure of skill status for apprentice vs. journeyman vs. master?
There are some journeymen who never make master status despite phenomenal skill, because of poor character, political reasons etc. This has been true always and everywhere.

As for the converse: a "canonical" answer might be obtained considering the skill equivalents for star ratings given to craftsmen.
A single star ("Poor quality") is given to someone with skill 51-60; two stars ("Inferior quality") to someone with skill 61-70; three ("Average quality") to someone with skill 71-80. So, at 71+ one is definitely a master, fair and square, no doubts. At 61-70, I am pretty sure one is still considered a master (if there are above-average masters, there must be below-average ones too); indeed, if one looks at descriptions of Harn locales, two-star establishments tend to show up as "basic/rough/cheap but functional". At 51-60 ... I'd say one is considered something of an embarassement by the guild, since almost all establishments at this level of skill are described in very derogatory terms (physicians whose patients show "an alarming mortality rate", unreliable drunkards who make maps based on tavern rumours, etc.). But there are franchise holders and thus masters even at this level of skill, which I think is reasonable for an unexceptional journeyman -- note that 52 is SBx4 if your SB is 13 and 55 is SBx5 if your SB is 11).

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#6 Post by Eder » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:30 am

GarryHamlin wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:29 am
2. What game mechanism might to used to reflect the recipient's judgment of quality? E.g., a bard in a tavern may get a critical success on a dice roll for singing, but the audience may still think, however mistakenly, that he sucks. (The bard can't very well defend himself by saying - look at the damn dice man, that was a CS!) But people sometimes fail to appreciate quality when they see it.
Value enhancement (Skills 7 in HM1, Skills 20 in HM 3) is the "standard" Harnmaster mechanism for evaluating quality of what gets produced. HM3 states, under the SINGING skill, that a Value Enhancement of 1.5 is considered fair: that's a CS at ML 20+, a MS at ML 50+, and a MF at ML 110+. Note that an hostile audience will probably penalize your EML (though not your ML), so hostility does lower "appreciation".

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#7 Post by Targan » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:06 pm

Peter the skald wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:44 am
... like all those folk that diss Beyoncé because they dislike her style or stance....when we all know she is one of the greatest performers of all time.
Bahahaha... Poe's law at its finest. Bravo.
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#8 Post by Peter the skald » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:56 pm

Haha..I see what you mean 😄 I will add intent to clarify: I can appreciate that Beyoncé is a consumate performer despite not particularly being a fan; and have never seen her give a below par performance.

For me to say she is rubbish or a poor performer would certainly indicate something...but not about Beyoncé 😅
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Mastery vs. Journeyman status and skills.

#9 Post by MDMann » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:14 pm

I'd advise the converse. Peter's law: without a clear indication of intent, take all comments as sarcastic/tongue in cheek. :P
Per Sir Veer.

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