HarnManor and owed serf labor

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HarnManor and owed serf labor

#1 Post by blackhorde » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:10 am

I am working on adding in serfs working demesne in Harshlands and was looking at the numbers to find out what each serf household tenant object would offer for output for their lord and the numbers work fine until you have a big villein.

Each villein household is stated in Harnmanor to handle 500 days labor. Assuming 8 days labor per mixed acre plus 3 days labor for maintenance on each acre I worked with 11 days labor per acre each year.

Villein with the max acres of 40 is using up 11 days labor per acre for a total of 440 days then they owe 4 days labor to the lord for each of their farmed acres which equals 160 for a total of 600 days labor or 100 days over their household maximum.

I know each household is assumed to have at least 1-2 tenants so we are not going over a years worth of days but is this expected?
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#2 Post by blackhorde » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:15 am

Another thing I found odd about HarnManor is that -every- tenant whether serf or freeman is included in the labor pool. This is odd because the franchised guildsmen are included. Do guilds folk really have 500 days labor in their household to offer to the demesne? I would think their time would be eaten up by their trade.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#3 Post by Rothesay » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:15 am

I think the issue is the three days you included for maintenance.

The peasants don't account for this labor, the lord does. So the villein above needs 320 days for his own land and 160 for the lord. Close to 500, but not over.

On the guildsmen, they probably don't do much labor in the fields, but that number might reflect other family members, itinerant workers, and maybe those few larger families that can go over the 500.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#4 Post by blackhorde » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:38 am

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:15 am
On the guildsmen, they probably don't do much labor in the fields, but that number might reflect other family members, itinerant workers, and maybe those few larger families that can go over the 500.
Well the 500 number is assuming something adding up to 2 adults worth of mostly full time labor for a year. It would seem to be cleaner to not include the guildsman household from the pool at all as if you had a bunch of them it is skewing the numbers a bit and pushing the assumption that the -other- tenant households have more able bodies to fill in for the guilds household who probably have their hands tied up with their own little acreage and their trade.

I am leaning towards just not including them in the demesne work pool for a fief in Harshlands. Or at least cutting their availability in half due to their business. Would there be any unforeseen math repercussions to this I am not thinking about?
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#5 Post by Rothesay » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:57 am

You would end up with a severe labor shortage I suspect. In most manors I have worked up under these rules, the biggest constraint on operating the fief is labor.

I'm not sure it's intended to indicate that the guildsmen (or the priest) are working the fields, but as a general assessment of a fief's labor pool. Households will average out to 4 members, and 2-3 able to work. That means some HDs will have 750 or even 1000 for the largest. The rules seem to imply enough of them will be on that side to account for the guildsmen et al.

Also, while the guild masters, journeymen, and apprentices probably aren't working the land, there may be other members of their HDs who are.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#6 Post by blackhorde » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:01 am

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:57 am
there may be other members of their HDs who are.
Hmmm I guess my common day bias of parents with 0-3 kids is showing. Likely much larger families back then, plus maybe an aunt or uncle or cousin living with, etc.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#7 Post by Rothesay » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:06 am

Indeed, the unmarried brother, who knows?

Most of the HDs are 1D6+1. Cottars less, villeins more.

I've always thought of that as the older members and not including small children.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#8 Post by blackhorde » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:20 am

Rothesay wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:15 am
I think the issue is the three days you included for maintenance.
The peasants don't account for this labor, the lord does.
They are not expected to expend the 3 days labor per acre to keep it in good order while they are renting those acres?
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#9 Post by Rothesay » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:26 am

It's not that they don't expend the labor, it's that it is accounted under the manor budget for 'fief maintenance.'

Adding the 3 days to the tenant would be double-counting.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#10 Post by blackhorde » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:57 am

Rothesay wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:26 am
Adding the 3 days to the tenant would be double-counting.
Ah. Like I said I am doing this at the tenant level. So there is no fief level calculation.

Basically the land owners get Tenant objects loaded they interact with in Winter to allocate land and Fall to collect coins.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#11 Post by Rothesay » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:59 am

In which case I imagine you can ignore maintenance labor entirely. Everything gets lumped into the 8 day count.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#12 Post by blackhorde » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:06 am

Rothesay wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:59 am
In which case I imagine you can ignore maintenance labor entirely. Everything gets lumped into the 8 day count.
But I thought Crop/Pasture acres require 8 days labor per acre to show working the land plus 3 days labor per acre for maintenance?
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#13 Post by Rothesay » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:14 am

Indeed, but if you make the tenant account for the 3 day maintenance, you have the double-counting problem. See p. 24 of HarnManor and it's line 8 on the form.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#14 Post by blackhorde » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:11 pm

Yes p. 24 is where I got the numbers for what day labor and cost each acre needs for maintenance yearly.

Again there is no overall 'fief' numbers going on here to double dip against. All the numbers are being represented on the tenant level, including what demesne acres they work as part of their serf status (I rounded it to 1/3 of what they are renting) or for pay above and beyond that or for pay if a freeman tenant. I have broken down all the appropriate fief level expenses to the tenant level so the land holders numbers alter as they gain or lose tenants.

According to HarnManor each acre requires 8 days labor to work the fields for the general 75d product output and requires 3 days labor to maintain that acre at its current level.

No overall 'fief level' maintenance is occurring.

To clarify the system I built in Harshlands the land owner goes up to their Tenant object, whether freeman, serf, slave, thrall, etc. and uses the Audit command in the Winter to assign acres from a pool on their character sheet to the Tenant. 1200 acres minus 45 for example. So for example a guildsman tenant would want 20 acres to rent and would work 25 demesne acres for pay. Total of 45 acres worked for that Tenant household which is 500 days of labor divided by the 11 days each acre requires. Then in the Fall the character goes to the tenant again using the Audit command and collects in a lump sum the cottage rent, land rent, franchise license fee if any and income from the demesne product output. The code adds up all the expenses and offers the character the profit from that specific tenant after modifying the demesne profit output by LQ, FI, WI, etc.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#15 Post by Rothesay » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:24 pm

I may not be able to help beyond this point.

Line 8 is the LORD's responsibility. If you are calculating the tenant, don't include it. It's really that simple.

If you insist on counting it to the tenant, you will have issues, but I cannot help there.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#16 Post by blackhorde » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:51 pm

Rothesay wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:24 pm
Line 8 is the LORD's responsibility.
That makes sense. So ... "They are not expected to expend the 3 days labor per acre to keep it in good order while they are renting those acres ... " no. Interesting.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#17 Post by Rothesay » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:58 pm

Well, in a sense they do. The lord has a labor pool which is used for a variety of tasks. Some of that labor is owed by obligation and some is hired. The point is there is no real distinction at the level you seem to be contemplating.

At the tenant level, eight days an acre is right. Eleven is too many. I have no idea how this impacts your coding, but the end result is eight days per acre per tenant acre separately from the lord's budget. It probably doesn't matter how they expend those days.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#18 Post by blackhorde » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:13 pm

Rothesay wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:58 pm
The point is there is no real distinction at the level you seem to be contemplating.
It is an important distinction because I figured the tenant was responsible for the maintenance of the acres they rented since they would likely work them year to year .. but not the ones they are hired to work or work as part of their serf agreement but I suppose I can just chalk it up to The Man screwing the little guy.

I have the cost of maintenance for non-rented acres coming out of the demesne income on each tenant that is helping with demesne work.

So ultimately it's not double dipping .. in my system the land owner is passing off the cost of rented acres maintenance to the renter. But it's good to know it's not how HarnManor did it. Detail I missed.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#19 Post by blackhorde » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:26 am

Looking at this again ... if a tenant household is renting acres that take up all their labor pool for the year so they can't work on the demesne the land owner is losing money off the tenant aren't they?

45 acres uses up 500 labor for a year which is the average household offering of labor.

If a farmer tenant household is allotted the max of 60 acres they don't have any labor to spare to work on the demesne.

The lord loses money because he does not break even on those rented acres when he is paying for the 8 days labor and 3d per acre (x60) to maintain those 60 acres he is renting out for only 13d per acre.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#20 Post by Rothesay » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:33 am

Farmers don't owe labor - they pay rent. The max for a villein owing labor is 40 acres.

Maintenance is 3 days/6d per cleared acre. The system isn't granular enough to determine who is providing that labor.

In your above example, the lord is using 180 days and spending 360d. That is an investment of 540d if the labor is hired. The farmer is paying 486d if you add it all up. So yes, the lord is losing money on that guy. Probably why there are so few farmers.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#21 Post by blackhorde » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:38 am

Rothesay wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:33 am
Probably why there are so few farmers.
Is there some other draw I am not aware of for Lords to even allow renting above say .. 40 acres? If they only allowed up to 40 acres rented then they could at least get 5 acres of demesne work out of the tenant household.
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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#22 Post by Eder » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:06 am

blackhorde wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:26 am
Looking at this again ... if a tenant household is renting acres that take up all their labor pool for the year so they can't work on the demesne the land owner is losing money off the tenant aren't they?
Uh?
Do you mean that the lord is making less money from the free tenant than he'd make from a serf (quite true!) or that he is actually losing money compared to leaving those free acres fallow (definitely not true)?
blackhorde wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:26 am
45 acres uses up 500 labor for a year which is the average household offering of labor.
If a farmer tenant household is allotted the max of 60 acres they don't have any labor to spare to work on the demesne.
That's possibly true (though remember that 500 is an "average" -- larger households will have larger labor pools: check out the section on slaves for how to compute the labour pool of a household given its individual members). And so? The idea is that the farmer pays rent. In underpopulated Harn that's less valuable than the labour a serf provides (so most lords will try to push free tenants into serfdom), and under HarnManor mechanics even less so than under EH3 Manor mechanics, but it does not mean its value is negative.
blackhorde wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:26 am
The lord loses money because he does not break even on those rented acres when he is paying for the 8 days labor and 3d per acre (x60) to maintain those 60 acres he is renting out for only 13d per acre.
The lord is not paying for the labour, nor for the "generic" upkeep of the land rented to the free farmer. This is one key difference between HarnManor and EH3 Manor (and one of the very few things I think HarnManor does better). The lord spends labour and kind in proportion to the fraction of the fief that's demesne. So, if you have (hypothetically) a single free farmer that holds 20% of the land in the fief, and the lord holds the remaining 80% as demesne, the labour, fief maintenance etc. costs are computed for the whole fief, but then split 20/80. So the farmer is effectively putting in the labour and kind for "his" 20%.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#23 Post by Rothesay » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:16 am

blackhorde wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:38 am
they could at least get 5 acres of demesne work out of the tenant household.
Only if they hired it. Farmers don't owe labor but they can certainly be hired at the usual 1d/day rate.

They range in acreage from 10-60 normally, though in some cases freeholds will range from 20-120. A handful of villeins may also possess some free acres (5-30) for which they would only owe rent/fees but not labor.

As to why they would exist? I would think the above example rare. There is one farmer I believe in the example manors with 13 people in the HD, 115 acres at 6.5d per, and 871d rent & fees. That works out to 805d on maintenance for a profit to the lord of 66d.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#24 Post by Rothesay » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:18 am

Eder wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:06 am
The lord is not paying for the labour, nor for the "generic" upkeep of the land rented to the free farmer. This is one key difference between HarnManor and EH3 Manor (and one of the very few things I think HarnManor does better). The lord spends labour and kind in proportion to the fraction of the fief that's demesne.
This is incorrect as the example manors make clear. Each of them has fief maintenance under the entire budget including all cleared acres but not woods.

As I said above, the system doesn't work out who is doing what labor, but it is clearly part of the overall fief budget.

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Re: HarnManor and owed serf labor

#25 Post by blackhorde » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:21 am

Eder wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:06 am
The lord is not paying for the labour, nor for the "generic" upkeep of the land rented to the free farmer.
He is paying in the loss of end profit though. He is paying for other tenant labor to maintain the acreage, paying 1d gift for that acreage, paying 3-5d for feudal obligation, etc, etc. Each acre has kind or end profit deducted from its possible profit by the commitments that lord must pay for each acre.

So no he would not be better off leaving it fallow as he would be paying and getting nothing. But I am just saying that renting above 40 acres seems something a lord would avoid as they do lose out per acre. They don't lose as much as fallow .. but they lose a pence or two per acre rather than profiting per acre.
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