Here's the OPEN HARN thread. For more information on the Open Source concept, see http://www.opensource.org (the pragmatic view) and http://www.fsf.org (the ideological view). These pages are software specific, but the concept is the same. It is part of what made the d20 system so popular. I've have some experience in this area, and will follow-up shortly.

_________________
Cyril laugh at puny human!

I would whole-heartedly support this option. It allows CGI and NRC the opportunity to produce Harn materials at a profit and even enjoy status as primus inter pares while at the same time opening up Harn to ICE, Steve Jackson, and other parties. Furthermore, fanon would be another option among many, as protected as any.

The marketplace would decide which is best, and the the players would benefit. Under such a scenario, I can see Harn enjoying a renaissance such as we have only dreamed of. Fabulous!

Let me start off by saying that I think the possibility of an Open Source Harn is the most exciting thing I've heard in years. The world needs more Open Source games and you can't start with a better base then Harn. I don't know if Grant means Harn, HarnMaster, or both, but any option would please me immensely. I'm crossing my fingers and toes that CGI and NRC can settle their differences and Open Harn.

The term "Open Source" is usually associated with software, but the concept also works for games, as d20 and Fudge demonstrate. The essence of Open Source is that the user is free to copy, distribute, modify and derive from the creative work for any purpose. I included links to the Open Source Initative and Free Software Foundation above. I forgot to mention the Creative Commons, who are geared more towards music and text than software. Not all of their licenses are properly "Open Source", but many are very suitable. There's also an Wikipedia entry on open gaming licenses.

A preference of mine is towards short and simple licenses. By "simple" I mean something that can be easily understood without racking your brain or hiring a lawyer. By "short" I mean something short enough to include verbatum in the work. This is one reason I don't recommend the OGL. For short works like an FFF NPC, including the full text of the OGL (one of the required terms) can be an onerous restriction. A good compromise between short and long licenses are those that allow just a brief license statement.

A copyright license does not cover trademarks. This is to the benefit of CGI and NRC. For an off-the-top example, they could use "Harn Canon" for their own materials (and/or sell the use of it to other commercial publishers), and "Harn Fanon" could be used by everyone else.

Without knowing CGI's and NRC's requirements, I would initially recommend for Harn either the Creative Commons Attribution license (my preference) or the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license.

p.s. My real preference would a simple variant of the MIT license, but that may be too anarchic for their needs.

_________________
Cyril laugh at puny human!

I love the idea and it is the first real solution that is workable that has been presented by either side. If neither side digs in their heels because of personal reasons then Harn might just begin to reach its potential. Bravo!

I'm actually not as interested in Open Harn as I was upon first reading CGI's statement.

If we examine the phenomena of Open Source; both in the software arena of Linux, and the RPG market of d20; is that the open source model does not give anyone say over the quality or quantity of the Open Source being distributed.

d20 products are generated far more quickly than closed source and, speaking factually, many of those products are not good. In the linux world, we see a lot of rehashed code, repacked distribution, and very little cooperation between fan-code and production code. This has led to the inability of many revenue-based linux distributor from being able to support the rapid and sometimes haphazard evolution of code. To which, Redhat has responded with the Fedora-class OS. Fedora is not part of the revenue code that Redhat uses to maintain their presence in the linux market, however, Fedora-class provides a steering comittee where fans and amatuers are able to contribute within a framework. The comittee determines when a new iteration of the Fedora-class has evolved, and what code belongs to the class, so that contributors can remain abreast of changes and evolving methodologies.

The relationship that fandom has had with CGI/NRC under the agreement as stated by CGI has always modeled the Fedora-class of Open Source, where CGI has assumed the role of steering comittee, in order to ensure the quality of any fan produced articles. - Remember, CGI never just gave away their permission, they always evaluated the nature of what was produced by the fans. Their interest expanded beyond the articles as well, and I am proud to say that not only were my few articles well received by CGI, but my website (long removed) was also commented on favorably.

I for one do not want to see just anyone come along and decide they can produce Harn material. I think it is a mistake.

However, I feel that there is a great opportunity for the implementation of Open Source. It has nothing to do with the setting, but more to do with the Harnmaster ruleset itself. CGI and NRC have done little to evolve the ruleset over the years, and granted, the rules don't need much evolution to cope with the setting for which they were brewed. I for one have attempted to use HMx for a number of settings, and while those efforts were short-lived, I see a great potential in a more multi-genre application of the HMx ruleset. - far off topic, I know, but it seems that the HMx is as much in danger in this owner/author/fan crisis as the world in which we love.

Frankly, the rate at which Harn material is produced is rather slow. A Open Gaming model steered by an able body would allow for a quicker evolution and production of canon material. This material would forever agree with some of the original precepts of NRC's vision of Harn material, in that the year 720 is inviolate for example. However, I see the potential of an Open Gaming model for the production of adventures, play aids, and consumable gaming materials that do not need as much supervision, primarily because they do not interact with the canon so much as derive scenarios from it.

In any Open Hârn solution a governing body is sorely needed to ensure the quality of the works. Otherwise Hârn might well lose one of its distinguishing characteristis with OGL.

The Hârn world council would be in order.

_________________
Victory, Destiny!

The CoE (Council of Elitists) long ago established itself as such a body concerned with maintaining the feel, quality and accuracy of Harn World and Harn Master produced.

I think most of the members though killed themselves in despair during the Auran affair, d20 inititive, and/or over the 10 year+ ongoing NRC/CG wars.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I will need to familiarize myself with the concept, but I find the Open Hârn option extremely appealing at first glance. It looks like a solution beneficial to producers and consumers alike.
I don't think the quality of Hârn products would necessarily drop, at least not in the long run. Hârn fans are a discerning lot and bad product would eventually be weeded out in the open marketplace.



Well, if producers would be willing to submit materials to an independent, non-profit "Council" for their stamp of approval, sure, why not...

_________________
- Johan

"Some place needs to be the worst place in the world. Why not here?" -Brusselt Airmol

Please, NO Open Gaming License!!

grant privileges to a select few (Mr Leitchy, Mr Snellings, Mr Nillson, Mr Staples and Ms Sophia, sorry if i missed a few) if they will accept to oversee quality.

CGI and Mr Crossby continue to publish within certain areas with a pledge to not undo someone elses work (cannon or fanon)

and maybe we will finally get Triezon or what ever that was promised in 1987!!

Why ?
Do you have an argument for this?

Hello,

Well this has gone an interesting direction...

Just for reference:

NO ONE...I repeat NO ONE has EVER read, reviewed, approved or done ANY form of "quality control" on any of my fanon (with the possible exception of Patrick Nilsson when he was acting as my layout specialist and mapper on my first few projects).

I would not be interested in submitting fanon to a review committee.

If I was going to sell my work for profit, I might consider it, but if this is an open source then what happens if the committee rejects a product? What if I released a rejected product anyway? Would the "community" sue me? How would the committe be selected? Would YOU decide? What if I disagreed with who was on the committee? What If I disagreed with their ruling?

The problem with open source is that a property is either open or not. If it is open, everyone can produce whatever they want and the market votes with their dollars. The good stuff is profitable and the bad stuff is not. There would also be nothing stopping me from deciding that I don't like CGIs Golotha and release my own version of Golotha, completely different.

While iinteresting, I personally think that open sourcing Harn would only work so long as there was a "gentleman's agreement" on quality and who does what. However, if you get a "spoiler" in the mix who refuses to play by the "gentleman's agreement" there is nothing you can do about it except refuse to buy his products.

Just a few points for consideration...

TTYL

Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Possibly? I'll kill you...



And considering "how well" the powers that be has handled the situation to date I doubt that any gentleman will ever come out of an open source. Not only that but what happens when someone wants more than they are entitled to or when someone refuses to give that? It could get messy. Fast!

Fanon should as Kerry adds never be handed over to a bunch of wanna-be Hârn gods, and with this two-camp following, who is to say that the ones judging the material will work together well at all? Many problems with an open source especially when the two main shots can't even see eye to eye.

Hârn lures so sweet...

_________________
I will return, oh yes, I will return...

This is an interesting development. I like it.

The quality level of fanon thus far does not suggust a decade of crap is around the corner should the license go open. The only scenario I could see this happening is if a d20 Harn is released under twin open licenses, it attracts a host of new fans who only vaguely "get" Harn, and a couple of them start writing Auran-like supplements. We should have such problems.

(Of course, I do worry about a crappy d20 product with faulty game elements being released and spoiling the world in the eyes of the d20 community, which is the largest market for Harn material. I think a kick-ass d20 Harn or SJG Harn would be an excellent development, if not to my tastes, but there will be only one first impression.)

I am not in favor of a CoE approvals board. I am responsible enough to get my material peer-reviewed, and I think the other fanon producers are as well. Those who produce quality material will soon become known to the fans, as will those who don't. I'm sure some enterprising fan will create a website where various products might be rated according to how closely they cleave to the true Harn line.

Hi Patrick,





I always considered it a two-way conversation about any changes. I showed you drafts, you pointed out things you didn't like and we negotiated the result.

Editing, review, approval and "quality control" to me is like when CGI rewrote most of the Selvos article because they felt "there was too much passive voice." They didn't ask me, they changed it unilaterally.

Unlike our working relationship which was collaborative, this "Harn Worl Council" proposal would be able to say "your stuff is not Harnic ENOUGH" or "not good ENOUGH" you can't release it. I would love to see someone try and define what the "Harnic standard" is. It is completely subjective and in the eye of the beholder. To some people it is the maps, some the art, some the tone.

We have had numerous arguments on the HarnForum about the merits of various articles. What if the Harnic World Council gets taken over by "carrot-counters" will the gamists be happy?



I could not agree more...

Good god, I am agreeing with Patrick quick fetch me an ice pack, I am feeling a little woozy...



TTYL

Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Putting my nose where it don't belong once more but what the hell.
As I see it, this "council" or whatever you would want to call it could not really be an official governmental body. BUT it could perhaps add a "recommended by" -stamp or some such to products that it deems fit to be true canon. If the publisher does not let the council review his work, no stamp. If the council decides that its not fit to be canon, no stamp. The work can still be published but without the stamp. Or something like that.

_________________
Poorly paid academic. Will do research for food.

It seems there are a wide variety of opinions on this subject. Some would like to see the setting open, while others caution it. At this time I'd err on the side of HarnWorld staying as it is. Once a resolution has been established on the NRC vs CGI argument, then maybe that would be a better time to revisit the issue.

On the other hand, opening the HarnMaster ruleset has much greater potential. Since I've not seen any yells for canon violations when someone posts their houserules. In addition, when WotC released the d20 system, it was the system rather than the setting that was made open. The value of WotC's properties was in the settings, just like it is with Harn.

I also believe that it would be HarnMaster that would draw in new people, while the Fanon would keep them here. The free HM3 pdf offer is what actually brought me to Harn.

If there's anything I'd want to be released as Open, it'd be HM, rather than HW. It'd atleast benefit a number of my projects.

That would to me and I bet a whole lot of others, be like the stamp Robin hands out: worthless. When the fanon is as good as it is for this game, some better than canon, such a stamp would mean little except for a handful few (oh command me master...). The idea is nice, so is theory communism, but impractical I would think. Besides who is to say this council is the right one to use? Too many carrot people will, as Kerry wrote, anger the gamist crowd and vice versa. Not that the latter is frequent on these boards...

Seriously this needs to find a good balance but I doubt it will ever work. Sad but true.

_________________
I will return, oh yes, I will return...

Instead of focusing on chaos that is Linux, consider FreeBSD, which is under an even more anarchic and laissez-faire license than Linux. It has the highest reputation for quality, and was chosen by Apple to be the core of Mac OSX. You can't claim FreeBSD is shoddy or that Apple isn't making any money. The difference between Linux and BSD isn't so much the license, as it is the community behind them.



But that's what we already have! Whether or not Harn goes open source, as long as fans have the permission to produce fanon, then fanon will be produced! If I can produce fanon without NRC or CGI standing over my shoulder, then anyone can. Sheesh.



But we don't have that "gentleman's agreement" now, but we still manage to get very high quality fanon with little or no spoilers. If you're concerned about bad quality stuff from ICE, SJG, etc, then consider the power of the trademark. You don't get the "Hârn Approved" stamp unless approved by CGI/NRC. This could be similar to the d20 stamp, but with some oversight. If the quality of commercial stuff got too bad, we discriminating customers would just refuse to buy stuff without that stamp.

_________________
Cyril laugh at puny human!

If the Panaga trilogy were released as fanon, I am sure many fans would reject (or at least critique) it as being far outside the "true" Harn mainstream. So might a council of olde guarde volken.

This proves your point, of course. Harn was designed as a low-magic world to allow GMs to add more fantasy elements as they liked, or not. An open source Harn should be free to embrace more than one vision. That might lead to some confusion, but might be healthy as well. (Were I to publish a open-source verison of Harn that varied from the CGI/NRC versions—high-magic, perhaps, or a p-Harn campaign—I'd advertise this fact by creating a sub-brand identity that would let fans know what they were getting.)

This would be a miracle beyond belief! I am a micro-publisher married to a Harn GM with 18 years experience.
Please, both of you, make it so. I will be forever grateful.

Morgaine
http://www.brigidshearth.us

_________________
Sincerely,
Morgaine
http://morgaineoherne.com
denmother@morgaineoherne.com

Some of you have expressed skepticism at the thought of an Open Source Harn. I don't blame you, because there's a lot of misinformation out there.

There are several classes of people involved, so let's look at the upside and downside to them all. They are the primary publishers, secondary publishers, fanon authors, and the users. There are also canon authors, but since they are a subset of the other groups, I won't treat them separately.

First are the primary publishers, NRC and CGI. They have a special role as the original creators, and comprise the extent of the current commercial Harn industry. They are also the holders of the Harn trademarks. Any financial downsides to opening Harn falls only upon them. The choice to open Harn is theirs alone. Both parties already have each other as direct commercial competitors. If they're willing to add more competition to the mix, I won't stand in their way. Besides a somewhat large downside, they also have the potential for a huge upside: a greatly increased Harn marketplace.

The secondary commercial publishers are a new group. They would be people like ICE, SJG, and other game publishers deciding to get into the Harn act. To this group, everything is upside.

Is there anything to prevent this group from publishing poor quality Harn materials? There are two things I can think of. First are the standard market forces that are always at work. If the market (that's us) doesn't want crappy Harn goods, then crappy Harn goods will disappear from the market. I think what scares most people in this community is the idea of a suddenly expanded Harn market. We've gotten spoiled being a small elite customer base, and an Open Source Harn means we will have to share Harn with <gasp> munchkins. We want a small boutique Harn, not a supermarket Harn. But if Open Source Software market is any indication, there won't be any supermarkets. Instead there will be bazaars full of small boutiques.

Another force that can keep shoddy quality at bay is the Harn trademark. One reason d20 got a reputation for crapware was because WotC allowed the "d20" logo to be used on everything. But the Harn trademark allows the primary publishers to excercise some quality control. There are several ways to do this. Requiring approval for commercial use of the Harn trademark on a product cover or advertisement is one way. Creating a new "Harn Approved" mark is another. I particularly like the idea of a "Harn Canon" mark reserved to the primary publishers alone.

Then there are fanon authors. Currently the situation is that CGI wants authors to use one copyright notice and NRC wants them to use another, with both parties otherwise allowing mostly unrestricted permission to create non-commercial fanon. There are few downsides to opening Harn for fanon authors. One upside would be more authors, as there would be explicit permission from all parties to create fanon. Another upside is that some authors can start to contract out their work for payment. Need a map for your manor? Pay Fred to create one for you!

Will it mean the existance of "crappy" fanon? There's crappy fanon today! You just don't see it on lythia.com because its authors are too embarassed to upload it. Open Source Harn won't change anything in this regard.

Finally there are the users. I've already listed some of the downsides to them. They might lose their status as a small elite customer base that must be catered to. I personally think the concern is silly, but understand full well that many people feel this way. Old farts don't like newbies, and opening Harn is sure to attract those noisy smelly disrespectful youngins. The only thing I can say to that is, if it comes to the choice between a noisy smelly Harn and no Harn at all, I will put up with the noise and the smell. There's nothing stopping an Open Source Harn from having small elitist old fart sub-communities, however. Open Source Software has them, and I don't see why Harn can't as well. I'm a member of the FreeBSD community, and you can't get much more paleo-elistist than that!

The upsides to the user are numerous. First, you end up with a greatly expanded selection of Harn Materials. You'll probably also end up with a greatly expanded player base as well.

The problems of AD&D are not the fault of the OGL. The rules were crappy before d20 came along. It was infested by munchkins decades before d20. There were crappy supplements with closed source TSR. In other words, open sourcing the rules didn't make AD&D worse than it already was. In fact, it may have improved it.

Open Sourcing Harn has potential benefits for everyone, unless you're one who can't handle change. But even then you're free to close your eyes and pretend you're still living in 1983.

_________________
Cyril laugh at puny human!

Personally, I do like the idea of Open Harn, with the caveats of using the "Harn Canon" trademark for items produced by CGI and NRC, and a "Harn Approved" trademark for those items that have been reviewed by the Harn Community and approved as being within the guidelines and expectations of the quality and feel of Harn. I would think that a Council of Eleven members would not only insure diversity, but would also be rather appropriate for Harn. I would think that having one person from CGI and one from Kelestia on the Council would be best. The rest of the positions I would say should be chosen in the following manner: The HarnForum nominates members. The list of the nominated are then submitted to NRC and CGI. Each side is allowed to approve or disallow any of the nominees. This creates a board with the authority of the trust of the HarnForum members, CGI and NRC. If CGI or NRC disallows too many members, then it is again put before the HarnForum. Perhaps a relatively neutral party, (Leitchy maybe?) could have the authority to override any veto by one side or the other, but not if both sides vetoed the person. Should any members leave the Council for any reason, the remaining members vote on who is to fill the vacancy.

The above is just a rough draft and can always be improved of course. Items with the "Harn Approved" stamp would most likely be accepted as Canon by a majority of the fans. Anything without the stamp can still be bought/used/etc by any GM, but would not be counted as anything but 'house rules' of someone's p-Harn.

With this set-up, a seller can create his own 'High Fantasy Harn' and market it as such. But it does not have the "Harn Approved" stamp. Therefore strict Canon Harniacs would be unlikely to 'accidently' purchase it. Market forces would still be in force and would likely discourage most poorly written supplements.

Any thoughts?

_________________
Hawk

Harn Website: http://www.boiseharn.us/

"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

I endorse an open source Harn and reject some sort of 'council of elitists' to police it.

Crikey - we have fanon now that is grand stuff - who is going to say otherwise?

And is some self-appointed council going to decide what is and what is not Harn? What sort of a solution is that?

Open the damn thing up and let the consumer decide. None of this priesthood/elitist/men in flippin' robes nonsense. I wouldn't pay any attention anyway.

Hey, yeah, open source Harn. Then Robin could sell stuff, and CGI could sell stuff, and fans could publish stuff. Then I could buy the stuff I like and not buy the stuff I don't like, and use the fanon I like and ignore the fanon I don't like. I could pretend that copyright didn't even exist.

Gee, I wonder what that would be like.

Seriously, the only difference would be that nobody would have bitched at Matthias for putting a Paypal Donate button on his site.

_________________
Keith Mann
I really must get around to changing my .sig

but... if you give it away, then nobody can steal it? What's the fun in that? How's a software pirate to survive in an open source world? Will I be relegated to degrading jobs and the unemployment line like those Capital One Vikings.... relegated to selling ad-space to pizza joints on my crimson cape? Two large suppremes for $9.99?

Nom de Plume...
former digital pirate...
future walking billboard...

_________________
A war-ferret on both your houses...