I was recently re-reading the "Tales of the Lesser Gods" pages from the original 1985 Gods of Hârn book and was inspired to try a little experiment in mapping out the stories in chart form. The basic idea was pretty simple: to use a chart to show line-and block charts to illustrate the relationships that the myths illustrate among the various gods, even those which were somewhat indirect or tangential. I'm not sure what, if anything, I expected to learn from this. In fact, I'm not sure I actually have learned anything.

Still, I thought I would share some of those charts here for those who may be interested.

Here's a chart of "The Eldest God" story summary:



Here' the one I made for the story of "Morgath and Bukrai":



And here's a (surprisingly complex) one for the story of Ahnu and Dhivu:



I'll post 1-2 more separately.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Here's the chart of the "Ilvir and His Children" story:




And here's one for the tale about Halea, Naveh, and Dekejis:




I also went ahead and made charts for a few of the stories that are found in articles on the individual gods, which serve to connect them to each other. For example, the Siem article references a tale that the Illimitable Tome was originally offered to Siem, but that he refused and nominated Save-K'nor instead. Here's a chart of that one:



NOTE: The Statement "Save-K'nor Article" is an error. This is from the "Siem Article". Sorry for any confusion. I should have corrected that before posting.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

So, once I made all of these charts, I decided to try and combine them all into a single chart-- one that would create a picture of how these myths, as a whole, link the various gods together.

As I did so, I realized it would be too complicated to include some of the 'vague/indefinite references' I had in earlier charts (e.g. to "The First Gods" as a body, or to "the other lesser Gods" or to the three unnamed gods whom Morgath slew with Bukrai, etc. and still have the combined chart. So, I removed them. I also removed references to humanoid mortal races like the Sindarin and Men, and a few other things.

Also, for the sake of it, I added Sarajin here, but did not link him to any of the other gods, as there are no tales establishing such a connection.

And here is what I came up with:



FYI: I also tried leaving in the "Concordat" in this picture, and drawing lines linking all the gods to it (including Sarajin), but it really looked too messy.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Finally, I decided to try simplifying the picture by reoving the servitor gods / demigods (e.g. Valamin, Ahnu/Dhivu, the V'hir) and just leaving the "Big 10" gods of the Harnic pantheon.

Because many of those minor gods established additional "links" between the big 10 gods (e.g. Ahnu and Dhivu indirectly linked Peoni to Agrik and Morgath, while the Ivashu and V'hir provided still further connections between Ilvir and Agrik), I decided to 'thicken the connecting lines' between the major gods when the removal of minor gods linking them occurred.

The result is below:



Looking at this, I do think it's interesting that six of the major gods do appear pretty closely linked together in the myths we're given: Agrik, Peoni, Larani, Ilvir, Siem, and Morgath. Save-K'nor has links to several of these gods, but is relatively peripheral compared to those six, who appear to constitute the 'core' of the mythology (at least as we are given it). And Naveh and Halea are even more peripheral, being connected to the main body of the shared mythology only indirectly, through Save-K'nor. And of course, Sarajin, remains off on his own.

(Again, though, if I had included the "Concordat" as an object here, there would be lines linking it to all the gods.)

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Great Charts!

I think these charts would hold up in most of Venarive.
Have you figured on how Azay, Kelenos, et al would figure into it?

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Leave the gun, take the cannolli.

But what does it mean? Do these stories mean anything about the gods . . . or only about their worshipers? If the latter - which is the interpretation I prefer - what can we conclude from them?

For example, what does the story of Halea and Naveh tell us about those faiths? My theory, which I have been working on for several seconds now , is that the story is an allegory for a political situation between Karejia (Halea) and Dalkesh (Naveh) before the Azeryan Empire. Give me a little more time and I might come up with more details. The point is that it is people who tell these stories, and they tell them for specific reasons - reasons that are often forgotten in time. For example, the Book of Revelations was intended as a political commentary - a satire, really - about the Roman Empire at the time it was written. Centuries later no one understood the satire anymore, and it started to be read as eschatology. Thus, stories that are written in one way can take on completely different meanings in a relatively short time.

(Actually this can happen in the course of a few days. I'd pull some examples from the news but that would almost guarantee the thread will get hijacked. )

Thanks, Dave.

These charts only represent the myths that we are presented in the "Tales of the Lesser Gods" section of Gods of Harn (and a few other stories from individual god's articles in that original publications). There is no attempt to link any subsequently published material (either by CGI, Kelestia, or fans here).

That said, what you outline does seem to me to be a potentially fascinating area of inquiry, particularly in so far as the other pantheons of western Lythia (as laid out in the Venarive module) do appear to have different tales about the relations of the gods-- or at least, this is implied by some of the comments about these pantheons.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

You've just asked quite a bit, with those two brief questions! And they're very good questions.

I would suggest that these brief summaries provide us with examples of the kinds of stories that Harnians tell themselves about their gods. As such, they constitute a partial glimpse into the existence of a shared Harnic mythology that is known widely and not limited to any one church. And like all mythologies, it tells something about the values, concerns, anxieties, etiologies, and systems of belief/thought of those who share in it. As such, I would choose to see these tales-- both individually, and collectively-- as a set of narratives that tell us something about how Harnians view the cosmos, the world, the gods, and their own place in it-- and not as proclaiming fundamental transcendental truth about the ULTIMATE REALITY OF THE GODS THEMSELVES (assuming that they even exist).

As for what any of these individual stories tell us about how Harnians understand the world, well, that would require (I think) a close reading of the individual stories, which is probably the subject for another thread, or perhaps some sort of fannish writeup. (I've actually been toying about doing this...)

However, I think looking at the stories as a collective body of interconnected mythology-- and exploring where those connections occur (which is the specific issue I was exploring with these charts) may tell us some interesting things on it's own. For example, I think these stories really show that there is supposed to be a body of shared and accepted Harnic myth out there in which the gods (Sarajin being an apparent exception) do interact with each other This fact may seem trivial-- but given the number of times I've read complaints about the Harnic pantheon being a 'polytheon' consisting of ten different churches, each with its own unique and unrelated beliefs and stories rather than a 'genuine pantheon' (whatever that means), I think it's important to remember that.

Some of these tales are really quite surprising, when you look at ust how many gods are indirectly involved in them. The tale of Ahnu and Dhivu for instance intertwines not just Larani, Agrik, and Morgath, but also Peoni, Ilvir, and Save-K'nor. There are also some curious unexpected connections at various times, such as the brief-- but intriguing side reference to Siem in the tale of Ilvir and his Children. Siem actually pops up rather unexpectedly in a few other tales as well, like in the story of Morgath and Buktrai and in the account of the Var-Hyvrak originally being offered to him. For a god with so few human worshippers, and who is believed to have withdrawn from the affairs of gods and men, he is surprisingly important in the Harnic mythology.

Also surprising (to me at least) are some of the multiple/strong connections that exist among some of these gods. In the last two charts (combining the various tales), thicker lines represent divine relationships that are mentioned multiple times. (The thicker the line, the more interactions in the the tales.) From these, it's fascinating to see that Harnic mythology (at least as presented by these stories), appears revolve around the triangular relationship of Agrik, Larani, and Peoni, with Ilvir, Morgath, and Siem playing critical secondary roles. By contrast, Halea and Naveh are pretty marginal in the mythology-- almost tangential, like the story about them was taken from a different mythological tradition and grafted more recently on to the main 'trunk' of Harnic myth, while the other, older traditions mention them not at all.



Thank you, Elaine Pagels.

Seriously, I don't disagree with you, and I rather like that explanation of that tale. Ultimately though, as you note, it may not really matter whether (as you suggest), the story was originally intended by its author to be a thinly veiled allegory of a political dispute, or if it is (as I suspect) a recent import into Harn's mythology-- or both! What matters would simply be: How do the Harnians of today understand it?

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

And there needn't be just one answer to that question. In my game, one of the PCs (an Ilviran cleric) just got into a theological debate with a rival cleric (also Ilviran). I thought it was interesting that, even in the same religion, there were wildly divergent interpretations of "reality". (Plus, Ilviran trash talk is pretty funny to listen to.)

My own approach would be to try to discern the origins of each myth. Myths are a device for building a faith community - they only really exist in that context. They do this by . . .

... describing who is in the community.
... and who is out. These people are often portrayed as villains, or idiots, or both.
... establishing a bargain with god(s), which usually includes promises of greatness for the community as a reward for fidelity.
... establishing the norms of behavior - what is a virtue, what is a sin, what are our rituals.
... propping up heroes, typically the founders of the community.
... propping up the god(s), of course. Or dragging down the rival god(s).
... legitimizing the current leadership.

Obviously this is just a partial list. You can see mythmaking almost in real time just by reading the news - I don't think modern man is any less enamored with mythmaking than his ancient forebears. Every faith community, from the Mormon Church to Occupy Wall Street, creates its own myths, and for the same reasons.

In this statement I am not addressing the idea that there are certain myth archetypes, a la Frazer. I find archetypes useful for discerning when a story has become a myth, but that's all the further I care to push that set of ideas.

(I would point out that myths are almost never created just to explain natural phenomena. Rather, natural phenomena are incorporated into myths as a storytelling tool to make a point on the lines of the above. For example, the myth "The CIA created AIDS" is not meant to explain the origins of disease, but to prove that "Nixon hated gays.")

So when presented with a myth like that of Naveh and Halea, my first instinct is to think, "What community would tell this story, and why?" The meaning may be completely obscure in the TR720 context - the community and context in which the myth was created may be long gone. In this case, is seems plausible that a Halean community composed the original story to demonize a Navehan community, and a cursory scan through Venarive finds a reasonable candidate in the Karejians who were threatened by an expanding Dalkesh Empire in the Second Century TR. It is obviously only a theory, but that's the fun part about this sort of conjecture - you are rarely ever proven wrong.

Some of the myths are relatively obvious. The Agrik/Larani relationship describes two faith communities at odds with each other - the demonization of the "other", and it also describes the virtues and vices of each side (at least, in the versions that each faith maintains). But some parts are obscure. Why does Ilvir appear? What community inserted him into the story, and why?

Here's another two-penny theory. The idea that Ilvir needs Agrik's claw to create his Ivashu is a sort of emasculation of the deity. I imagine that an Agrikan community - either missionaries or conquerors, or both - encountered a Ilviran community (probably the Jarind around the Sea of Ivae), and wanted to delegitimize the Ilviran faith. In this part of the myth, Ilvir is reduced to a secondary power - he can only create because he has a piece of Agrik. The Larani myth can't be much older than BT300, so the period between BT300 and TR1 would fit. The two communities had to be in close contact for a long period of time, since the Ilvirans apparently turned the myth back around and made Agrik's V'hir the creations of Ilvir - thus putting Ilvir back on par with Agrik.

I would go a step farther and recognize that most of the stories of the church origins are clearly myths. Going back to the idea that there are certain patterns in myths, there are several telltales in the foundation stories that indicate that they are myths. That there was a single founder is not necessarily a sign of myth, but that there was a magic number of disciples, and that the modern institutions can be traced to the actions of specific disciples who were directly connected to the founder - those are signs of myth. In these cases, the purpose of the myths are mostly to legitimize the church organization. The city of Lysara might once have been ruled by an Agrikan named Moralin, but it is surely a myth that Moralin was a direct disciple of the founder. That's the sort of detail that a pontiff would have inserted to "prove" that Lysara is the legitimate center of Agrikanism.

All the connections between the deities in myth seem to indicate faith communities in long and close proximity. To me, the connection most striking is that between Morgath and Siem - that seems worth delving into for insights into the Sindar community.

Neat! (but confusing)

The fact that Sarajin ends up completely separated is pretty telling.

Color coding might greating increase the story/value of the charts. The link between Peoni and Larani is as strong as the link between Larani and Agrik but they are characteristically opposite. In the earlier charts the link between Ilvir and the Mortal races is the same as between him and the created Ivashu. In some cases directional links might also be of value.

I imagine in the final chart the line-colors are as simplified as the relationships.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Well, if you wish to ignore the entire last century of mythological thought, which, from a variety of perspectives (the myth-and-ritual school of cultural anthropology, psychoanalysis, structuralism, comparative religion, etc), explores myths as a narrative expression of deep-rooted psychological, philosophical, and cultural concerns and habits of thought, so that you can focus on it as a kind of politicized, ideological community-building, that's your prerogative. I find that's a bit too cynical for my taste, even for a 'realistic' world like Harn.

Don't get me wrong-- I'm not saying that the kind of politicized interpretation/reinterpretation that you describe isn't real, or part of the reality of myth. Of course it is. But to suggest that myths "only really exist" in such a context... no, that's too limiting and shallow. It turns myth into nothing more than propaganda.



True, very true. And, I'm sure you can even find a way to get around the inconvenient fact that the Halean church hadn't even been founded in the 2nd century.... which would make Halea a most unusual choice to include there. But even so, I would then ask the question(s): What is it in this *original* meaning of the story that would possibly appeal to 8th century Harnians? What do they see in it, that they even bother to retell it? Whatever the original meaning of the story was to the supposed Karejian author who told it, it seems to me, it can't be the one that matter's today's Harnians, who have now integrated this story into their own shared mythology and see it a totally different context from the originary one that you posit.




I would say that that reading the Khamar / Sunder Claw myth, as part of a a set of concerns about about life, fertility, etc. provides a range of possible answers. So does looking at the structure of the stories. Ilvir in these tales, stands in a weird kind of relationship to Agrik-- essentially as a kind of 'mate', as it's through this ironic coming together of the two of them (Ilvir the infertile breeder of life and the symbolically castrated Agrik) that the V'hir (and the Ivashu) are born. (I've often thought that Ilvir breeding the V'hir from Agrik's fallen blood was reminiscent of the blood/semen from Uranus' severed genitals giving birth to Aphrodite in Greek mythology... but that's another story.)

At the same time, the presence of Ilvir in these two tales seems strangely related to the equally odd presence of Peoni-- and there's a curious inverse relationship there too. At first, the tale of Khamar tells us, Agrik nearly slew Larani-- but Peoni healed her. Then Larani wounded Agrik-- Peoni offered to heal him. He refuse her offer but instead takes up Ilvir's offer instead. This suggests, in a weird kind of way, that the Agrik-Ilvir relationship mirrors Larani-Peoni one. This seems rather fitting as both are relationships between war gods and fertility gods (or in Ilvir's case, life without fertility). There seems to be me be a kind of 'structural logic' working here that suggests a pattern of mythic thought that's connecting war, infertility, life, and healing in some abstract way. (I'm tempted to try and draw out some Levi-Straus style triangles to work this out, but I don't think that's going to happen....)



Also possible, sure.

I've got to step out but your last two paragraphs are also really interesting. Hope to get to them later.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Just because I don't find the "Comparative Religions" approach useful doesn't mean I reject the conclusions others might make using it. Feel free to use any analytical tools you like.

As for Halea and history - the pontificate was established in the 4th Century, but the faith is obviously older than that. The founding stories of the church imply that the faith was already well established.

And it is a very good question, "What does this myth mean today?" Just as Revelations means something completely different today (at least to some) than it did in 180AD, the Halea/Naveh myth clearly has changed in meaning. Perhaps someone will take up this question.

As for the Khamar myth, I believe that the myth is a conflation of several independent myths that have been combined. This is a very common process in myth - I think you can see this readily in the Arthurian Cycle, which conflates so many stories it's hard to track them all. The Larani-Peoni connection would have arisen from a joint Laranian-Peonian community as a standards-establishing myth - "The Laranians fight, and the Peonians heal (and feed) the fighters." I imagine that in the original version the enemy Larani fought was a now forgotten monster. This myth was later conflated with the Agrik-Larani fight. I see a couple possible explanations for the myth of Agrik's rejection of Peoni's healing - an Agrikan community might tell this as an example of stoic virtue, while a Peonian community might tell this as an example of Peoni's infinite charity.

The absence of Sarajin shouldn't surprise too much. The Ivinians burst on the social scene only about 300 years ago, so there has not been much time for intermingling. And the Sarajinian faith is neatly contained in the Ivinian ethnic group. I would expect Sarajinian myth probably includes Agrik, et al, in poetic descriptions of Sarajin's might. Eventually I'm sure there will be more.

I also think it parallels the Middle Earth divine myths which has a brawny outsider god shows up that wasn't part of the original divine structure.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Yeah, I initially thought I would try to use directional lines (arrows, or some such) and other coding to represent the different kinds of interactions that one can find in these myths (e.g. a red arrow for violence, a green arrow for aid, some other kind of line for restraint, another type of line for love) etc., perhaps supplemented by some brief textual annotations. but that got really complex (in terms of decision making) quickly. Do I use one symbol for Peoni-Larani in the Khamar myth to show aid given, and another for Peoni-Agrik to show aid rejected? Or the same one? And do I use a separate line to show Peoni's restraining of Larani from killing Agrik? It just started to get pretty overwhelming, so I opted to retreat from that more nuanced plan and just illustrate the existence of the relationships in the charts, rather than trying to characterize them.[/quote]

I have the feeling that something like this could be done-- at least for the individual myths on their own,-- but it might require someone with more decisive ideas about how to develop and visualize it.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Picking up from yesterday....



There definitely are mythic elements in these foundation stories (albeit in some more than others). The convenient numerological numbers of disciples are one example. The fantastic/miraculous elements are another. (e.g. the tale of Ilpylen returning to his village with "fiery demons following at his heels" after being sacrificed into an erupting volcano I would have also liked to see more of the standard 'archetypal hero' story (a la Rank, Campbell, etc.) worked into the founders (e.g. unknown/mysterious/odd parentage) worked into them, but I guess these really are only intended to be summarizations for readers. I'd be willing to bet that these tales, as told in full on Harn, have all sorts of those kinds of details worked into them.



At first, I was going to say that you had your early Agrikan history confused a bit, as there's nothing at all in the Gods of Harn or HMR account of the early Agrikan church that links Moralin with Lysara. Those texts present him as the disciple of Ilpylen who supposedly wrote the Balefire Chronicle, and who (along with the other 7 disciples) then split up and headed off (separately) to lead wandering bands that would lay 888 cairns "at the corners of the world". No mention of Lysara at all in there.

However, I just checked the Venarive module published by Kelestia Productions, and apparently they've added something new about Moralin. Venarive-165 identifies him as "Móralin the Wanderer – successor to the prophet lpýlen, and author of the Balefire Chronicles. Established Lysâra as a key centre of Àgríkan worship and power." Well, I'll be darned. That's a totally new addition-- and it seems incongruous with the timelines given for everything else in the module vis-a-vis the history of the Agrikan church and pontificate. I'm going to need some time to digest that....

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

I'm still coming to terms with this. I've started a separate thread to address it: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12786&p=166027#p166027.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

FYI: I started responding to this, and realized that the question of Halean history is an even bigger can of worms to figure out. I created another thread to address this issue
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12792&p=166077.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Agreed on all counts. Especially, about the idea that there will be more.

I think there are some points in the established mythology where a shared connection could be developed (or might be postulated to already exist).

In particular, I'm thinking that the story of Ahnu and Dhivu provides a possibility. We're told Peoni brought Dhivu back to life, "placing her in the land of Ivae". The fact that Sarajin is said to have conquered Ivae by driving out the semi-divine monsters who dwelt there (i.e. the Pradeyalkri) suggests one possible point of connection for Sarajin with that Harnic myth. Could Sarajin have encountered Dhivu at some point-- either fighting her, befriending her, aiding her, mating with her (!?!?) or establishing some sort of connection? Might there even be some figure in the myths about Sarajinian who might be equated/identified with Dhivu-- such as Suerlji the "horrific serpentine monster" who Sarajin defeated at Mount Ilbengaard?

Or. could that serpentine being Suerlji instead be identified as Ilvir? Was Ilvir perhaps spawning creatures (the Pradeyalkri) in Ivinia before he came Harn-- after being driven out by Sarajin? Or could Suerlji have been Ilvir's brother... or father, or some such. Such a mythic identification seems highly tempting....

Or could there be some connection with Siem, in so far as the Ivinians do have legendary memories of the Ivinian Dwarves?

Ultimately, I see Sarajin ultimately being integrated into more general Harnic mythology, and probably being placed towards the 'upper left' of the combined charts I drew, maybe somewhere in the middle of the triangle formed by Ilvir, Agrik and Dhivu, with lines connecting him to Ilvir, Dhivu, and possibly Siem.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

I've been thinking about this some more, and there are some even more fascinating oppositions in the Ilvir-Agrik / Larani-Peoni pairing here, when one combines these two myths and treats them as a whole. For example, Ilvir & Agrik are both male, while Peoni and Larani are female. Peoni and Larani are anthropomorphic while Ilvir and Agrik are monstrous. Ilvir helps Agrik produce 'sons', whereas Larani is said to be Peoni's daughter.

This is really rich and deep stuff, from the point of view of structural myth analysis.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"