OK. I am not trying to be difficult or to beat on Robin any more than on CGI on this issue. The problem from a legal perspective seems to be that both sides had a contract, both sides think the other breached it, both think it has been terminated and the rights to publish HarnStuff go the way they think they ought to go.
I don't think either side acted in completely bad faith or in completely good faith. I think there are two aggrieved parties who needed arbitration and opted to work things out their own way instead. Clearly that action resulted in a pair of MF rolls - both parties wound each other and stagger on.
To me, the tragedy is that two good guys got into this mess, ruined a friendship, and now waste their energies on it when they could be creating more good stuff.

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Heroes should be uncommon. They just happen to be the PCs.

O my.

This is all so...
(is childish the right word? Never mind)

When I first heard of the 'split' years ago I feared they were ruining Harn. So far they didn't. I fact, I think all this petty bickering about who is or might be right and the way everybody behaved about it ever since has done Harn some good.

Somebody mentioned that Harn might become public domain as a result of the ongoing argument. This might turn out to be the best think that could ever happen.

Wait and see (is all we can ever do anyway)

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

No, it isn't. Harn is very important to Robin. It's not simply a (very) modest paycheck; it is, aside from his family, his life's work and primary contribution to mankind. If he is right, (I believe he is, but I'm not beyond understanding that others might not share my belief) then this work has essentially been stolen from him. It's not childish, petty, or unreasonable to take great exception to this, to get angry, and do what is within one's power to get it back.

There's an old saying, that it takes two to tango (for those not familiar with the saying it means that it takes two to fight/argue/have conflict). But as usual, there's another saying that's just as true... The opposite of war is not peace, it is slavery. My point is that while it's easy to observe a conflict, blame both sides for behaving badly, and cast a "pox of both your houses", it may be a very unfair condemnation on someone that is simply attempting to not be trodden upon.

I don't mean to suggest that Robin is some sort of saint, or that he hasn't made mistakes, or that he has done everything possible to avoid the situation that we're now in. What I do hope (perhaps naively) is that one or two of you might think about what you would do in a similar situation, and how would you hope the folks who appreciate and enjoy the fruits of your labor might respond.

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Ken Snellings
CHMP Member
Fredericksburg, Virginia, United States of America

Hello Ken,



Contrary to what you might think, casting a "pox on both your houses" was not easy for me.

In fact, it is more accurately a symptom of the depths of my sorrow and despair that it has come to this.

I loved Harn (the use of the past tense is not accidental). It was quite simply the best world and games system I could ever hope to find. That love has been p*ssed on, spat on and down trodden over the last six years until I find myself so completely disgusted that I can't even bear to open one of my Harn books.

Canada has been lucky to never experience a Civil War. Unfortunately, I have been drawn into a real-life civil war in minature.

I didn't want to pick sides. In fact, I tried VERY HARD to stay neutral. However, in a Civil War you are not allowed to stay neutral.

I have ended up on the CGI side of the war. Not so much because I wanted to be, but rather because Robin made it clear that if I was not be publically FOR him then I was AGAINST him. Make no mistake, Robin DROVE me into the CGI camp. Contact me privately if you wish copies of the very nasty e-mails he sent me over the years. CGI on the otherhand, treated me with respect. They didn't demand my allegiance, rather they were polite, helpful and gave me time to come to a descision.

I get the very strong impression that Robin would rather see all of Harn destroyed before he would let Tom (or anyone associated with Tom, including myself) have it. Since the beginning, he has waged a war of scorched earth. Three times, I have tried to bury the hatchet with Robin. Three times he has come back with the same response (I am paraphrasing) "Bend your stiff neck, beg my forgiveness, confess all your sins publically, get in line with my disciples and NEVER EVER question me again." Ken, you know me. If there was ever a demand that would GUARANTEE my refusal, that was it.

He has succeeded in one respect. He has completely drained all the fun out of Harn for me.

Now, all I feel is bitterness towards him. He may have created Harn, but he is sure doing his best to destroy it.

Ken, I respect your loyalty to the man. I agree he was wronged in many ways. But having dealt with him on several occasions, I can see where Tom's patience must have run out.

I believe that if Tom and Robin had TRULY wanted to resolve this dispute, they could have. But neither was willing to "Bend their stiff necks".

In the end, one or the other will be left standing on the wasteland that will be their pyrrhic victory. They are welcome to it.

The only thing that keeps me involved with Harn at all, are the friends I have made here. I count you among them. Friday night, I spent the evening with Christophe, Rebecca, Andreas and Dave in Montreal. We had a great evening and talked Harn all night. It reminded me of the way Harn used to be for me.

I look forward to HarnCon V. It will be a gathering of friends and I will be glad to see them. I hope you are there.

TTYL

- Kerry Mould

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Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Yup, and I count that as one of the biggest mistakes he's made. I know some of the reasons why he's been flat out hostile towards you Kerry, and I'm willing to discuss them with you if you like, but I doubt they would be satisfying.



I'm very sorry to hear that as you've been an incredible asset to this community and an inspiration for me.



I can understand your feelings towards him and I don't blame you at all. It's not Robin's intention to destroy Harn at all.




I can too. Robin isn't always easy to work with and he's often quite particular about his vision. I get along with him fairly easily is all I can say.



Yes, the community of friends I've made here keep me going as well. I'm sure I would have dropped the entire RPG scene if it weren't for the many folks that I've become friends with here. I certainly count you as one of my friends and I don't have any intention of allowing this KP/CGI conflict to damage that.

The HarnCons have been a huge lift for me, and I was quite serious when I said I wanted to be in Montreal with you guys. While I don't have my plane tickets in hand yet, I fully intend to be at HarnCon and to enjoy the companionship and fellowship of the group. Hopefully, someday, you'll be able to get that Harnic fire under you again.

Cheers,

Ken

_________________
Ken Snellings
CHMP Member
Fredericksburg, Virginia, United States of America

Hi Ken,

Thank you for your understanding. I look forward to see you at Harncon. We can sit down and have a pint of something cold and wet.

Cheers

- Kerry

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Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

The entire split between the producers, is the reason several of my long time Harn friends here in Darwin, no longer have any interest in the setting, and have not purchased any products from any supplier for years. Only with reluctance will they participate in a campiagn I am running. Kerry has put into words my feelings also. The fans are great, but the producers... I met Robin once, and the feeling I had from that was articulated very well by a fan several years latter. I have also met the CG principles and found a very different group of people.
Allan

I agree with all you wrote Kerry except one thing...

Robin has always been very polite when he has mailed me, and told a very different story than Tom did without being a drain of the game. That being said, the reason I stuck with CGI was because the way Robin wanted to take Harn, was quite the opposite of what I wanted it to see. And therein lies one the problems; too many who still play this more than dwindling game are more interested in personal interest than some morality issue. And if not, they are getting sick of this petty feud and look for something else.

Hence my surprise of Neil's stance.

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My name is Patrick and I'm a Hârn Fan even if I do not worship at the Altar of the Misty Isles anymore...

Patrick

It surprised me too!

My decision was based on one thing:
In my opinion CGI should still be crediting Robin with joint copyright, as that’s what their contract says (and Tom acknowledges this). If, as they claim, the contract is still valid, they should comply with it. To me, that means acknowledging Robin. Removing him from the joint copyright is a petty and, to me, wrong.
If the contract is, as Robin claims, broken, then CGI have no rights. Tom acknowledges this too, and I respect him for that. He doesn’t like it, and I can fully understand why, after all 20+ years of work are suddenly handed over to a man he “no longer likes very much”.
The bottom line, however, is that Tom & Robin both agree that they signed a contract which said ‘If we divorce, Robin gets everything’. To return to Toms house building metaphor (and probably stretch it to breaking point) the only thing left to argue over is whether the divorce is final.

Fanon material is (or has been) CGI layout and joint copyright since this stupid dispute started. People downloading the free material from Lythia.com see stuff crediting CGI and NRC. At least one person who downloaded Asolade Hundred has never seen anything in the Kelestia format. The balance, IMO, needs redressing, no-one else is doing it, and it’s unlikely anyone else will, so I’ve taken it upon myself to produce Kelestia style fanon.

Neil

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Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Iconography: Filthy Byzantine pictures

One thing I am convinced of .... in the long run... the fans (which includes those of us who have taken part in this debate) will work it out...

Jeremy

So we could (perhaps are) behaving like one of those "two-week-at-a-time" children, playing out one parent against the other to get as much "allowance" as possible out of each.

_________________
"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Format change of the century



That's bad knews when it comes down to player level. I have told my little bucketheads about this issue and they don't seem to care or even listen. They just like the setting, game and perhaps their GMs style too.


I remain neutral and stick to the gaming. Seller is responsible for copyright issues and paying the royalties.

This (the above cited) is the right stance for me in this issue. It is of no concern to me who owns the copyright and who may legally distribute Harn -material for cash.

I can, however, understand the issue Mr. Crossby has with 'handing over' his world, which is his invention, probably like one of his own children to him. On the other hand, children grow up and one can't control them forever.

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

Bad taste warning...

STINO said "children grow up and you can't control them forever"

If you have an Austrian dungeon you can just about manage 22 years or so though...

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Speaking for myself, no. There is (AFAIK) no "allowance to be had. I write what I want, the way that I want too.

I strongly disagree with CGI's stance over copyright.

Hârn material is (IMO) either:
© N Robin Crossby & Columbia Games Inc.
or
© N Robin Crossby (Keléstia Productions)

I simply can’t accept CGI’s current copyright claim.

I don’t want to disagree with my friends.

I’ve met Kerry, Jeremy, Ken, and many others and though I’ve never met John Sgammato, Daniel Bell or Patrick Nilsson I greatly respect their opinions. This board is full of people who know and love Hârn and who take a great deal of care in everything they publish. They all want to create a logical and consistent gameworld. Unlike Kerry (and his posts were news to me) I have not been forced to pick sides and (based on what Kerry says) Robin has been extremely foolish. We’re all entitled to be foolish sometimes, perhaps now it’s my turn. But I’ve done what I think is right.

Neil

_________________
Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Iconography: Filthy Byzantine pictures

It was twenty-four years.
...and isn't this proof to what I'm saying? On any moral basis you can't do this.

_________________
"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

First of all, what I ment with my metaphor about the child with divorced parents was that the child doesn't side with one parent (or shouldn't), but sometimes uses that fact that the divorced parents (sometimes) cant get along.

And for the other metaphor, "allowance". I mean by this the fact that we all write things to harn, sometimes we use and release work that we perhaps shouldn't (according to copyright laws*) if we look at it through a lawyer's glasses. But just as Tom said, neither company can actually do anything about it, Robin should have used an arbitrator to end the deal with CGI, and CGI should be the bigger man here and keep the original copyright so the can say that at least they follow the deal (in that case perhaps even pay Robin according to the old deal). If they would have done that, then only Robin would have been a cranky, grumpy man, now as far as I see it, they all are crank, grumpy old men (perhaps old was the wrong word here). So neither of them can do anything about if I (and other) for example uses to much text in my work that I upload**, because they are both currently working in a very gray zone themselves.

I haven't seen the original deal (only through hearsay, and hearsay are easily exaggerated) so I don't know if there was a specific clausal in there that gave Robin right to single-handedly end the contract without any consequences, but I can guess that since we are talking about copyrights and companies it can be tricky.

*I know it is tricky when it comes to how much you can "borrow" or how much you can have as a reference material.
**Since I have no copyright I can only use a small amount texts and references, unless I have the copyrighters permision.

PS
I don't actually give a damn what the companies do anymore (they don't do much as it seems for the moment) as it is the fans (like you Neil) that has kept this game from falling futher into the rift of marginalization.

PPS
I got to go, I have to pay my bills. Sorry to say that but I have a contract with a local landlord, so I acually have to.

Edit: And if I do walk away from my apartment then I still have to pay the damn landlord three more months and perhaps have an inspector look at it.

_________________
"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Hi Jeremy,



I agree. That is the one belief that keeps me coming back to this forum. Eventually (one way or another), Tom and Robin will cease to be involved with Harn and pass the reins on to someone else (Grant in CGI's case, KP's heir is yet to be revealed). I think that once the reins pass to someone with less personal involvement in the fight, the chances for some sort of resolution (even if it is only dividing up the world and agreeing to ignore one another) greatly improve.

The fact that the members of this forum have managed to hang together, even through these sort of debates, bodes well for the future.

Despite my pessimism on the chances for resolution in the short term, I am cautiously optimistic that the future will be brighter. Given that the future is likely to be in the hands of people I count as friends (on both sides of the debate) and that I am the eternal optimist, I have not packed up my Harn books (they are still at the right hand of my writing desk) and I have not walked away (only gone on temporary "hiatus").

Here's hoping things will get better.

TTYL

- Kerry Mould

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Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Dear All
With a number of acquaintances and, I think, a number of friends holding opinions on both sides of the argument I feel Jeremy and Kerry sum up what we all hope (Kerry please excuse the editing of your post to the essential core).

This thread has explored the legal and moral questions as thoroughly a possible. Those that have expressed views have done so with passion but humility and politeness and all of us who have read it I think now know where a number of people stand and are informed enough to make a judgement about what we should do, if we feel we must do anything. If minds were going to be changed or fences vacated then surely that must have happened by now. Therefore to further rehearse the positions seems pointless to me.

Rather let us endorse Kerry and Jeremy's hope and await developments.

In the meantime we could all go away and invest our time and energy in producing some stuff that we might find useful in our next game.

Perhaps Peter could put this entire thread somewhere where it can stay as the best summary of the community's current understanding of the state of play. Then whenever the issue comes up in future we don't return to it but simply refer the enquirer to the archives.

Hear! Hear!

_________________
Heroes should be uncommon. They just happen to be the PCs.

I am heartened by the fact that the fans are for the most part remaining true to the setting we love so much, and, despite differing opinions, this thread has remained civil and informative. Also, I am particularly glad to see that fans have not been dissuaded from participating in the two upcoming conventions this summer, as these will both be excellent venues to cement the many friendships that exist in our community.

I'm with Gallus in that we should probably let this debate lie (as debating appears to be all we can really do about it at present) and look ahead to future fanon ventures, such as ...

... adventures for HârnCon !!! (more please, more please)

Speaking of which ... how 'bout all those interested in GMing a scenario post their thoughts here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9135

Nothing specific is required, just let me know that you have an idea for a scenario you are thinking about running.

If anyone has any ideas about the Saturday evening main event, please post them as well so we can get started with planning.

Cheers,
Brian

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Brian McNeilly
Burnaby BC Canada
bmcneilly@shaw.ca
http://members.shaw.ca/harngm/

See you at HârnCon 10th Anniversary, Vancouver, July 5-7, 2013

Like Brian, I too am greatly heartened by the civil tone of this thread. Thank you all.

For the sake of completeness, I wish to point out the official stance of Double G Press can be found here.

This thread has now been "stickied" and moved to a forum where it won't be deleted after 90 days.


Edit: I managed to forget to give registered users permission to see this forum, so aren't I the dummy!!




Should be fixed now....

_________________
Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

Like the others on this thread I just want to thank everyone for being polite. I truly believe that Harn's strength and cornerstone of appeal is the community of fans.

_________________
Visit the Nelafayn Hundred Project
http://www.lythia.com/nelafayn/

Please forgive me for this input but I need to say something. Harn has been a wonderful part of my life since 1985. I never was involved in any of the 'newer' iterations of the Harnmaster rules so I don't know much about that newer fangled stuff. I still haven't figured out how to make CC work with the Mappa Harnica being my eml with computers is about 19 (including wasting points when I was rolled up ). It appears to me that nothing about Harn is truly original. The world is based upon specific timing of middle ages Terra and put on a fantasy blue marble called Kethira. Everything on a planetary scale about Kethira is very reminiscent of Terra. Having fantasy races of demi-humans is taken naturally from LOTR. Even having Sindar/Khuzan bitterness as of 720TR is not original. Heck, the picture on the original Melderyn release is none other than Leonardo da Vinci's self portrait...err umm Gandalf the Grey...dang sorry Genin. Seeing how magic makes a game like D&D very exciting for about 2 sessions, making Harn magic-weak was a natural, progressive decision. FRP that is easily stale becomes thought-provoking and far more interesting. Moving from d20 'to hit' and all the little dice for damage to a percentile system is more of the same; improvement of a weak system and making it brutally real and awesome. No, Harn (for better of course!) is the brick building built by the third little pig. The wolf is just overly busy consuming all those cities of pigs living in straw shacks rolling d20s and going gaseous when someone cuts a loud fart. That there is something unresolveable between NRC and CGI smacks to me of money. I don't believe that NRC will ever be disassociated with Harn even if he tries to do so on his own, for all time that Harn is played. It is always going to be his baby no matter what happens. This problem shouldn't be so difficult to resolve reasonably. Unfortunately, it takes two sides that want it resolved.

Well there it is for what it's worth.

I think this is a very central point. Reasons that others have stated about the direction X or Y wanted to take Harn or how someone treated them nastily. That is just self serving reasoning and I can't agree with it.

You can't just take a contract and declare it unterminatable and that you can do whatever you want and not owe anyone anything - use the parts you want and decide not to honor that parts you don't like.

Or rather you can do it but it is wrong to do so: it is stealing.

No amount of "meanness" or personal preference makes it right. If there are any reasons worth respecting for taking one side or another these should not be included.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)