Hi all,
I have always considered one of the reasons that Kaldor has the 4 caravans converging upon it every summer was that all the other Harnic nations coveted the gold that was traded in Kaldor via Azadmere and the Silver way, and that Harn as a whole was a net exporter of silver, but especially gold to mainland Lythia. I have been trying to reconcile the fact that it against the law for anyone, excepting the Earl of Neph and Crown, to own 10L of gold. This would give a virtual monopoly to the Earl and King for the trade in this precious metal, unless the dwarves themselves could trade in this commodity as well, since they are foreign traders. The Mercantylers from all the other countries would also have to be allowed to have more than this amount of gold as well. Mercantylers from Kalodr would also have to act as agents for the Crown and the Earl. How much additional wealth do you think would be added to the both houses in such a scenario. I find this particularly intriguing since it may well swing the KSC since this would mean that both the Crown and the Earl of Neph would be able to approach the wealth of Earl Daruine in the succession. What type of Kaldoric and Harnic economic and political consequences would this imply?

Caldeth

Question - in which work of canon is it stated that it is against Kaldor law to own gold unless you are the king or Earl Curo? Or is it a parameter specific to a work of fanon, or to your own campaigns?

I ask because in all the materials I have about Kaldor, that restriction isn't mentioned. Perhaps I am missing something, or didn't read it carefully enough if I do have it...

Gardiren

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"Your logic is flawless. But that doesn't mean you're right." - Tedd Good

That would explain why I never read it anywhere. I don't have the Gardiren article... Thanks for the info.

Large Kingdom with the Second Largest City in Harn plus a corresponding market size and a Cross Roads. Size and Location. Not Gold IMO.

That's just one of those things that doesn't make a lot of sense IMO limiting maximum gold to less than 8 Khuzhan Crowns at 320d per person or that the majority of world gold is mined from Azadmere. [Basically a PC mechanic IMO like charging 5,000 d for a Coat of Arms from The Herald's Guild (Despite the canon default of being a cash poor setting) for the Prudent Long Term Manorial Manager Ambitious Capitalist PC Penny Knights Except for a Baron or an Earl it should not be a concern in most games the restriction is observed since the GM controls the gold and makes the rules regarding the purse strings]. If a manor lord wants to have a few secret hidden stashes to support his gambling or mistress or concerns he could be losing the manor at some point in the future or other rainy day like a Bailiff who can be fired at any moment and perhaps doesn't trust mercantyler notes (written record) or works for a suspicious lord known to regularly investigate his retainers so purchasing property not the best option. Saving for a major purchase like a masterwork Khuzan weapon or travel like an extended pilgrimage or following the court or a tournament circuit because of the losses associated with trading in the notes. No harm no foul.

A Mercantyler's Note is lighter than Gold and more secure if the Mercantlyer Clan secret codes are used especially locally. Theoretically anyone can redeem a gold khuzhan crown not a Mercantyler's Note. [Many ways tougher to track that spending compared to a note passing through hands forming a chain if trying to maintain a low profile plus Mercantylers are basically loathed by most gentleborn it is not unreasonable that some would insist on being paid in coin and not notes.]

Even if the personal limitation in gold coin is observed it is not limited to gold jewelry or gems or silver coin or even Mercantyler's Notes for those penny knights or wealthy capitalists.

No reason a sovereign kingdom like Azadmere would be affected by the limitation since it is so easy to circumvent remember the limitation is per person and most P-Harns are cash poor.

Married or Noble can double that carrying it in the name of the spouse. Probably the same "Holding" for children's dowries and son's majorities.

As per the 100 Bushels of Rye the Manor Lord does not have 20L in coin laying about the manor and that is the norm not the exception. Hiring a mercenary band for a short period basically exhausted his financial resources. He had a 1,600 acre manor and is one of the best jousters in the kingdom without a wife (and her lady in waiting) or the standard two children and he got rid of his father's Bonded Master [Basically 3 Gold Crowns a year (HM3 Bonded Master Ostler only paid 936d a year and Harn Manor less if using Kind and the one third in coin)] and he didn't replace him with another Master Ostler. At that level he should be aware of the importance of his steeds in jousting. He should be flush with coin and wealth except for social pressure to consume one of the major distinctions between the gentleborn and commoners (Harnmanor 18 noted that and I believe it is also mentioned in Harnplayer).

Field of Daisies the PCs are not offered to be rewarded in coin they are rewarded in kind which is several degrees better particularly when each PC receives a reward in comparison to the standard fine for a runaway serf. Reward partially offsets needing to go to Earl and request assistance with managing manor which would tend to highlight the bailiff in a poor or negative light of being unable to manage his responsibilities.

No reason Gold could not be shipped to Melderyn and the mainland via a caravan and the sea.

According to canon the Earl of Neph cannot approach the wealth of Earl Dariune except theoretically unless there is a new Earl.

Not much Mercantylers use Notes.

I read this differently. Not "10L valuation of gold" (ie, 10L = 2400d) as a restriction, but a literal "10 pounds weight of gold ingot or coin" (10 pounds = 160 ounces). 10 pounds of gold bar should be worth about 50,000d or over 200L in silver. That is the limitation that I read into this.

The lower restriction makes jewelry prices stupid, and the idea presented in the Jousting article of nobles wagering sums best counted in "L" rather than in "d" on the outcome of jousts is ridiculous.

Depends on the P-Harn but 1 pound of gold is 6,400 d [20 Gold Khuzan Crowns], 10 pounds would be 64,000 d. Default is there is only a 1,000,000 or so silver pence on Harn [30,000 or so actual pounds or 15 Tons of Silver].

Mercantlylers purchase the goods in bulk from Manors converting kind to coin so they could easily be paid in 1L+ Notes. Many of the high cost items for the Lord and his household will be purchased from Mangai Guildsmen. A 1L or 5L note is a lot lighter than 240 d or 1,200 d if one is purchasing the latest high fashion outfit from a Master Clothier.

The average Will 10 Bachelor Knight will only be able to save about 1L a year (More with higher Will variant and less if using Harn Manor and Kind where only a third is in coin) and they are wealthy.

A lot of the wealth of wealthy free and guilds men is tied up in their property and business which is often the same building. Generally you borrow money at high interest rates we would consider usury against property at 1 - 2% a month. Miss a payment by a few days and forfeit the property. Without collateral interests sky rockets 10 - 20 % a month and possibly higher.

Bailiffs and Manor Lords could save more but anyone saving more than 10L - 20L plus for their treasury cushion or reserve was exceptional and unusual. Particularly if using Harn Manor Kind economics instead of HM3 wages. Chewintin fanon has those nice 40L several years to construct 10L Towers. Constructing one probably a goal and priority if the funds are available for most new frontier manor lords and for more settled peaceful lords with extra funds construction of one of those grand fanon manors or expansion of their existing manor for the larger clans outgrowing their current manor.

Excess purchases jewelry or silver plate or other equivalents like bolts of silk (for new outfits from your Bonded Clothier or Seamstress or Tailor) which can be converted to coin.

Owning property and "renting" property is socially acceptable with a property manager. Property like a townhouse in Tashal and or Olokand or the town your liege lord maintains his home. Each of which could be borrowed against or sold if needed but is very nice for socializing and visiting court over the summer or winter and requires some modest staff overhead. Collect social favors letting friends without townhouses utilize them visiting.

Quite a bit better than the grandest tents (during the peak visitation season like the Royal Chelebin Tournament in Olokand or The summer caravan Market Days in Tashal purchasing choice luxuries and necessities when things are crowded to overfilling and Innkeepers are gouging everyone and you might not possess enough rank to warrant sleeping on the floor in the castle for yourself much less your party. Somewhat crowded townhouse among ones social equals usually quite a bit better than roughing it in a tent with a piece of cloth shielding you from the elements.

Barons and Earls would have more based on their numerous manorial holdings. Earl Caldeth has a lot although he is noted as a prudent manager at home in remote Vemionshire where he is able to get away with it because of his rank who is very generous in public when he travels, but he travels infrequently.

There are prudent managers (probably a lot of the wives who are not wagering pounds on a bet putting it to better use purchasing a new outfit or accessory (jewelry or silver plate or other permanent or temporary luxury item that enhances quality of life for the household) for herself, her husband, children or relations) but they are supposed to be the exception not the norm. Conspicuous spending is the default. You are powerful and influential if you can support a large extended family. What kind of potential ally is someone who cannot dress and equip his family and retainers properly much less other social gift giving? The Lord with the reputation for generosity can trade on that compared to the miser lord.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how such a law limiting the quantity of gold that can be possessed (whether a literal weight or a weight equivalent in currency), under penalty of death and confiscation, unless you are the king or the Earl of Neph (who admittedly can only use his exemption to pay his taxes)... really helps the Kaldor economy...

Especially since other jurisdictions (Melderyn, Kanday, Tharda, etc) don't have that restriction.

My concern lies with the retaining of sureties by the usurer - type mercantylers. In order to retain solvency, let alone be profitable, the usurer would have to be able to retain surety sufficient to cover all current promissory notes that that usurer has issued, let alone have reserves sufficient to continue providing loans as business requires. Now for the small usurer markets, the gold limit has no particular issue, but I could imagine that any usurer of 4 "stars" quality or more would be very interested in retaining such sureties primarily in gold rather than in silver, since silver is the base coin material of the realms. The possession of gold coins by anyone not involved in large mercantile interests would attract the attention of almost everyone nearby to where a transaction happens wherein - for instance - an adventurer buys a horse with Khuzan gold crowns... It may lead to question of why that person has these coins... even a possible arrest and official investigation as to where such a supply of gold came from... but in the end, if there is probable cause that this person indeed acquired the gold legally, that it would be that person's right to retain it and continue on their way. The reason for suspicion would be the use of gold by usurers as surety and not for common currency.

The use of gold is also the best means for a noble to pay scutage or other taxes to their liege in a small and easily-transported fashion, using riders on fast mounts rather than slower means (down to the slowest, being payment in kind).

Ultimately the possession of gold makes the wealthy able to store their wealth in smaller spaces, and used best in large sum transactions... In essence, it becomes the true measure of "wealth", especially for those that don't tally wealth by land...

Which is then a taxable status of interest to the exchequer of any land, and by extension, the interest of the king in his subjects' wealth...

All in all, I see the quota law of gold possession as nothing more than an artificial impediment to keep the mercantyler's guild (including usurers) weak in Kaldor, especially regarding the Silver Way...

Am I reading into this correctly? Or did I miss some salient point that actually justifies the law?

I don't know if its been mentioned, but maybe Kaldor is a primary source of silver and as such has its whole economy pegged to that metal. Therefore, if gold were allowed to be a key monetary source within the kingdom that would drive down the value of silver as the dominant currency and undermine the crown's economic base since it technically owns all precious metal mines and thus derives a significant revenue from them. As a result the crown attempts to artificially keep the value of silver up in the kingdom by limiting the amount of gold that can be kept by anyone who is bound to the kingdom's laws.

As far as merchant notes, those issued in the other kingdoms can still be based on actual gold deposits and thus used within Kaldor since they are not actually possessing the gold within the kingdom itself.

This could mean two things that draw the merchants to Kaldor for the summer fairs, other than the coming together of the four key trade routes. First, the fairs can be the one time and place in which the king allows gold to be brought in and exchanged for goods. The one stipulation being that all Kaldoran merchants retaining any gold within the kingdom must have them converted into promissory notes based on usurers from outside the kingdom and that said gold leaves with those individuals. Second, because of this, the fair also acts as a clearing house for these gold promissory notes and thus enables merchants from all over Harn to make the large purchases that are needed to carry on trading activities within the Harnic system.

Just 6d of ideas on the subject.

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Roy Denton - the title says Baron, but Queen for a year. (Cheselyne I)

"Nathamh na hoibre an t-eolas"
(Knowledge comes through practice)

Makes sense.... (no pun intended)

Although it still punishes any local usurer that wants to actually get rich, in my opinion... Since their sureties would have to be in promissory notes from these out-of-kingdom other usurers who have the right to have gold. Basically it would make the Kaldoric mercantylers masters at all legal ramifications of promissory notes, since that would be the basis of their wealth - other than whatever other legal trade contracts they possess...

And for that matter, it would make a large chunk of the Kaldor economy far too vulnerable to fire, water, and rodents - basically anything that could damage the promissory notes into decreased value - or make them be useless or destroyed.

I still don't see it as a viable and well-thought-out law... although perhaps that is the idea... and an adventure hook for litigants and mercantylers to try to get it reversed...

Of course, it could also be really due to a planned monopoly by those making lock-boxes, so that their really big ones, to store huge sums of silver, get to corner the market when dealing with "rich people"...

Some of my thoughts regarding Mercantylers:

Don't forget gems and the Bonding Halls for high value low weight value and despite the international scope of the Mangai there is no "International Bank". Local Master Mercantylers are like local Savings Banks and "Loan"/Pawn Shops since most loans are made against collateral of some sort.

The Tashal Module identifies 11 Master Mercantylers by name and notes 4 are most influential [Notes one manages 80 acres of land when these Guild Masters are the prime candidates to be "Bailiffs" of a manor because of their personal wealth plus an extra 2d an acre to the lord since they cannot provide military service for a standard sized manor themselves on top of the regular one third cut for being a bailiff and terms could include stipulation of no household support)].

F26 is the only house hold where more than one master is mentioned (although The Guild Hall makes references Master Koerein and the other Tashal Masters and another Master K3 is noted in living in an Abbey Manor outside the city) although F29 mentions a Journeyman. Tashal is the second largest city in Harn and a trade hub for 4 major trade routes. Mostly noted against the context of the much larger number of wealthy nobles in the city.

IMO most Master Mercantyler's use some degree of leverage or fractional banking to increase their personal wealth (growing their business to a certain point and investing in property locally and possibly in one or two other locales (IMO this would make your Notes stronger locally in the region)). A reputable Master Mercantyler's can basically write an IOU based based on their Reputation [Good Faith and Credit] good in other nations although the amount they are good for probably varies. Established Franchised Mercantylers probably have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo as long as they are making a profit better than fish you already know in your pond than another more ambitious fish.

IMO the Mangai enforces these IOU promises by forced liquidation of assets and Franchise (probably not at the best prices) if a Master is unable to pay. Those franchises are valuable and hard to acquire which keeps the individual Master's "honest" and leery of allowing anyone to hoard their own notes and force a hostile franchise buy out.

Most other Master's are happy to tide over another Master in the short term for a high interest secured property or goods loan. If this would not be the case then most Master's probably keep a reserve of funds on hand with the local Mangai Guild Hall.

Most notes probably stipulate redemption terms (same or following business day or a few days for really large sums.

Some could be secretly backstopped by the various nobility.

There was one transaction noted trading pearls for their equal weight in gold which seemed like a bargain purchasing the pearls.

Makes sense, although it raises one question to make it work properly, presuming I'm following the logic flow properly. And that question is - would the Kaldor law about gold and persons give exemption to the Mangai Guild Hall's reserves? If so, then I can see it all working nicely, and the Mangai Guild Hall becoming the equivalent of a local "central bank", basically a repository of deposits of all usurers to secure their transactions.

If not, it leaves usurers again quite a bit at the mercy of being able to pay creditors, and collect their own due, in such a fashion as to remain liquid, and keep their reputation high - since it becomes their good name that is on the line...

The notion of a land-holding mercantyler - unless within the immediate jurisdiction of a chartered city, and under its land ownership rules - would present a conflict with the feudal structure, no? I mean, it would work nicely in Tharda, but I can't see it being in any of the feudal nations without some kind of challenge, or enforced ties to a liege of some sort. This basically would make the mercantyler also a freeholder tenant - giving rise to problems of allocating that land as a surety for the usury business?

Either way, I would stipulate that the law about gold possession unnecessarily complicates mercantilism in Kaldor, and there would be pressure to remove the law, or change it in some substantial way. Perhaps such reform would be objected to by the Miners Guild (due to the silver mines), but that places a lot of power in their hands if they do keep the law from changing... My preference would be to say that it is a hold-over from prior relations between Gardiren and Azadmere, for whatever reason, and just hasn't been made a real issue to the Exchequer or Crown due to "other pressing concerns" (ie, succession crisis ones)...

Or at least that is how I would approach it in my version of P-Harn...

No the law is pretty specific according to canon and doesn't note exceptions for Mercantylers but pretty easy to ignore. Possible gold gray area would be an agent or bonded master for the noted parties.

IMO most Master Mercantylers are going to have the majority of their assets working productively. They will have some coin laying around that varies by campaign mostly for business opportunities which is more productive since they can buy things they sell at retail prices as low as 10%.

One way around is holding Gold in Kaldor is holding it "outside" of Kaldor for some Mercantylers or "Mithril" in Kaldor.

The single "Landowning" Mercantyler mentioned left the specifics open. It could be akin to free farming as a very large franchise land grant or a land grant like mentioned in the harn lore article. I believe the Tashal Franchises should have some acreage like other most other franchises (West of Tashal) since land is viewed as wealth similar to Aleath in Kanday plus you can own property in cities so many mercantylers would invest in rental producing properties.

Property can be borrowed against to purchase other properties and being guild members they get the best taxation rate. IMO most Guild Master Bailiffs would favor Master Mercantylers and Miners for non gentle born and Master Heralds (and Clergy) among the gentle born.

Understandable and - I suppose - reasonable in some fashion to some GMs...

I am so glad I can ignore it though... It just wouldn't fit the way I run my games...

I find many good things in Kaldor v2 (Gardiren is an extension of that IMO.) The gold limitation is not among them, and I ignore it. Indeed, I would like its author to propound on why it was put in.

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The Melderyn Campaign

Hi All,
I look at this as the crown attempting to increase its wealth through the manipulation of the metals market. let us assume that kaldor is the market for precious metals for the trade from Azadmere(depend on your P-Harn), which has a general outflux to the Lythian continent for luxury goods, via the Genin caravans. These goods are being traded for the various items brought by the other 3 caravan routes not for coin but for the goods from Lythia, thus there is no general loss of silver or gold. Yet, the Melderyn mercantylers know that the Larun might trade for a bit of wool and other products, but overall, these trade goods cannot come close to purchasing all the luxury goods coming into Harn as a whole. So the metals coming out of Azadmere have to pay for the goods. Now silver is the economic base for Kaldoric and other nations economy, so this will more than likely stay local to the Harnic island to make coin, leaving gold as the only precious metal for significant trade to the continent. With the current laws in place, the Crown will make HUGE profits(as well as Earl Curo), being the only entity within the Kingdom with any significant amounts of gold available for trade(through agents). My point was, using this train of logic, this might explain the wealth of the crown and why this law was enacted, to add to the wealth of the Crown.

I know this has a great deal of holes in logic, but this train of thought was the whole purpose for the thread...how much would the Crown and the Earl of Neph gain from this situation.

Caldeth

Hi Rothesay,
John Sgammato was the one that added the clan Curo gold monopoly and the 10 pound limitation.
Regards, Dan

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Agree with it or not (I have yet to make my mind up ) I do find it intriguing!

I thought it was something to do with 'keeping cash/liquidity' in the system. I have an image here from blood diamonds whereby people are enslaved/brutalised/killed merely for the fruits of their abuse to be locked away to keep prices up for the diamond merchants. The law I see it ergo is an anti cartel measure; which returns an element of 'legal' control of the market to the state/crown/government. Of course; like in blood diamonds, the law is only as good as the will to enforce it.

Even so; I think it is useful to muse that Kaldor is reminiscent of times when businesses behaved like they were controlled by governments; and the growing realisation that vice versa is reality was held by very few (If powerful and clever people). So I see the Gold limitation law the beginning of the surrender of the state to business..but manifest in a show of force by the state.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Well, the whole idea is patently silly. One does not create or control a commodity through restrictions on inventory. You have to restrict the trade, and this law does not do that.

The author might have thought it a sumptuary law, or a law intended to reduce the ability of noble to hoard cash (to finance rebellion). If so, it is obviously ineffective. Even if it was enforceable, it would simply cause nobles to hoard other fungible commodities such as silver and gems, or to hold notes.

But history is filled with example after example of bad laws based on a poor understanding of economics. (The preceding sentence is translated from the original Greek.) I have no problem with the idea that such a law exists in Kaldor. There are countries with similar laws today. But I consider it to be just a little "color" in the milieu, of little or no impact on the economic life in Kaldor.

Ok Dan, I was being coy. I do know that John wrote it.

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The Melderyn Campaign

In this case, since the Crown owns the means of production (mines), wouldn't it just be a poorly conceived attempt at rank monopolistic protectionism?