No, no, no... they don't sell it to the Laranian church! Have you seen the complete goatrope that is the collection of Areshomes texts? It would be like giving the Ark of the Covenant to the American government to stick in a warehouse!

No, you sell it to the Save K'Norran library in Emelrene. THEY know how to treat precious documents! Or, possibly, one of the larger chantries that's known for its wide and varied collection of books.

Ha! Watch the Laranian church try to cover THAT up!

I've always imagined this to be the case- or at least a highly suggestive possibility.

Besides earthly church histories of how Agrikanism might have spawned Laranism, I think there’s a lot of neat mythological possibilities that can be developed from this too.

For example: I’ve often thought that Agrikans might view Larani as the warrior-daughter of Agrik, who originally served him, but rebelled against him and sought to overthrow/supplant him in some divine equivalent of teenage rebellion. She failed and was cast out—or fled (“Better to rule in Dolithor than serve in Balgashang”) and created her own rival/realm, where she continues to make war against her father− and rightful lord till this day. It was after his daughter’s rebellion/defection that Agrik felt the need for loyal *sons* (the V’hir).

I imagine that this could be a very complex point of tension within the Agrikan church itself− particularly when it comes to the church’s view of women (and perhaps institutional distrust of them, despite the existence of a few all-female orders). I also imagine that the Laranians might tell a quite different version of this tale…. Or just deny it as outright lies.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

And so began the great Heresy of Save K'nor, to be looked at and checked in by the royally investigated Laranian Inquisition

When I first saw the heresy of Larani being Agrik's daughter, I didn't like it. But, it's been growing on me, and now just feels right. It's to the point now I'm having to decide if it is heresy, or the truth, and where the belief is most common. I have decided it is a heresy of both the Laranian and Agrikian churches, although they tell the story very differently, and the truth is most likely somewhere in between. Here's the little bit I've written so far.

Agrikian Heresy
it is said that Larani is the daughter of Agrik and Peoni. Some say Agrik forced Peoni, but many say she lay with him willingly. Admiration for his fighting prowess, surrender after a defeat, the need for a strong descendant that would defend her, and cementing an alliance are among the many reasons given for Peoni doing this this. Larani served both Agrik and Peoni, always trying to play them off against each other. She was always unhappy, because she felt she deserved a place based on who she was, rather than what she could do for either parent. In the end, she demanded more status and power from Agrik, was refused, and rebelled against him. As expected, she was easily defeated and cast out from Balgashang. She limped back to Peoni, who took her in, healed her, and eventually gave her Dolithor to call her own, where she nurses her grudges and plots against Agrik to this day. Agrik realized that the influence of Peoni ruined her, and so had the V'hir created from his own body, to be servants that would be loyal to him, and only him.

Laranian Heresy
It is said that Agrik took Peoni by force, and that Larani is their daughter. Larani was raised by Peoni, and was taught that although her creation was an evil act, good came of it, and as such, she should always look for the good in everything, no matter how vile it appears on the surface. As Peoni wished, she tried to respect Agrik, and spent time with him, trying to end the strife and warfare that existed between her parents. Eventually, she realized that Agrik could not see reason and would never stop his evil ways. Thus, she wages war against him and his evil ways, and seeks to end his reign of terror. She created her own realm, where honor and nobility are upheld and evil is thrown down, as a mirror to the desolation and terror that is Balshgang. She honors her mother and defends her from Agrik and the other evil deities. Agrik had the V'hir created to help him fight her, as he fears her strength, and cannot stand alone against her purity.

This is awsome!

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Nonsense. Agrik is Larani's sister and says so himself.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Let me play devil's advocate a minute to help out:

My first thought was to the incongruency of a greater god (one of the big 10) being the offspring of any of the other big gods. In all other cases the offspring are lieutenants, demons, saints or even demi-gods.

Valamin is said by some to be Peoni's son kicked out of Valon for daring to kill in defence of the fields of Valon. Valamin seems to have been sent to Squire/serve under Larani. "Some hold that Valamin is actually a son of Peoni, sent to Tirithor to remind Larani of, "that which might be forgotten". (that which might be forgotten being likely related to Larani holding back from killing Agrik after Peoni resurrected her). If Valamin is depicted as a slim young man in snow white robes, on the hem of which is a small bloodstain - a mark of shame for acting in a violent way even in self defence - how then for Larani the goddess of war from the same mother.

Although a heresy need not explain any other mysteries the idea of Peoni rape producing Larani as a greater goddess doesn't fit well. Valamin doesn't fit well at all (he would then be Larani's brother instead of ward) nor does it do anything to explain Larani's role as Peoni's protector. When Larani is ambushed and slain by Agrik Larani is resurrected by Peoni there should be much more to the story if Peoni is Larani' mother giving live to her a second time - or if Peoni was raped by Agrik, Agrik killed the daughter and the raised daughter then held back from killing Agrik.


Now if you were looking for a more reasonable product of rape Agrik->Peoni Valamin makes a much more likely figure. From the power status, the violent tendencies, the hidden shame and "that which might be forgotten" (though neither a goddess rape nor a resurrection would likely be forgotten some sort of duty to not slay a defeated Agrik would fall into a category of things that could be conveniently forgotten in the heat of the moment or over time).

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Two quick comments/questions:

1. Isn't it strongly implied elsewhere (maybe in Gods of Harn or HM Religion) that Peoni is Larani's mother? If so, that's not an 'incongruity', but rather an answer to the question of who 'dad' is...

2) If it is an incongruity-- maybe that's the point (from the Agrikan perspective): Larani shouldn't be a major god at all. She should be a servant/lieutenant of one of the other gods--obviously Agrik. She's upsetting the natural divine order by not being so.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

In my defense, I wrote it at work (don't tell the boss!), so don't have access to any sourcebooks. I had forgotten Valamin even existed, let alone any details about him. Given this, then the heresies may not make as much sense. Maybe the heresies don't acknowledge the existence of Valamin? After all, if the sect is making up new stuff, they are as likely to also ignore existing stories. And I like the idea of beliefs contradicting each other, so support of Larani and punishment of Valamin is no problem to me. Messy religion is the norm, and more fun anyway.

Maybe Valamin is really Larani's son, and she wanted to leave him behind and forget about that sordid incident back in high school?

Personally, I do not see Agrik raping or lying with Peoni - that's just how the priests explain it to the masses. The lesser gods sometimes created entities to aid them. In whatever way this happens, the two could have created Larani, Valamin, or any other figure. Whether it was a cooperative venture, or one was coercing the other to help really doesn't matter in the long run. After a time, the new entity may gain power, by whatever ways this could happen. If it was created by two deities working together, rather than one alone, then there is an excuse for it to have greater potential. Gods in my pHarn do gain and lose power over time, and so having one major deity be the product of two others is quite reasonable. If this power fluctuation does not happen in a pHarn, then these heresies make much less sense there.

So, for me, Larani could have started out as a powerful demi-goddess, gradually gained power and followers of her own, and only became a goddess of war well after becoming independent of both Agrik and Peoni. This gradual increase in power is key for me, because it explains why her church came into being well after the others. Valamin is still thought by some to be Peoni's son, but he is a minor demi-god at best. Because of his actions, he cannot stay with Peoni, so is sent to live with Larani. "You always wanted to be just like her - you just as well go live there"! "Hey sis - Mom kicked me out. You got a couch I can crash on till she settles down?"

As for more information about the battle between Agrik and Larani, I agree with you. But, I also think each major deity deserves a large writeup detailing their history through time, their relationships with the other deities, the differences in what the churches teach vs. what really happened, and a selection of known heresies. Assuming these heresies are believed, then the battle and its aftermath are much more interesting, and just waiting for someone to detail it. I always thought that Larani was just badly injured, not slain, though that may be from my not having read that passage in years. Shouldn't make much difference in the long run, either way.

I think it is said that some believe this, but that it is not universally held, thus leaving it to the individual GM to decide.

Here are the exact quotes:
HârnMaster Religion, Peoni 1: "It is often held that Peoni is Larani's mother, in spirit if not in fact." (Also Gods of Hârn, Peoni 2)
HMR Larani 4: "Peoni is the mother Goddess and Larani has sworn to protect her from harm."
HMR, Larani 2: "Some hold that Valamin is actually a son of Peoni." (Also Gods of Hârn, Larani 2)

So, nothing concrete; it's left to the GM.

Was that cement to be said is there mortar you words than can be guessed

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

I don't want to upset anybody's heresies. I just thought I'd point out some possible problems. Wild heresies are great for splinter sects but they are likely to have to have ready answers to cover common questions.


Difficult arguement to make. Larani seems to be the stronger of Agrik/Larani. By legend Larani's pet dragon was kicking Agrik's butt. Luckily Morgath took a hand to save him. Sarajin is the other warrior god might be stronger than either of them.

Central Agrikian theology depends heavily on the defeat by Larani, the 8 drops of blood, the creation of the V'hir and the oath of vengeance against Larani for the day she killed him but was restrained by her honor.

Agrikian philosophy is hard put in the first place to explain how he is the stronger but was beat - much less claiming Larani wasn't even a godly opponent that he ambushed successfully once but otherwise beat him repeatedly.

A heresy that gets any significant following is unlikely to throw out the central tenents of the whole religion and the philosophical establishment of several of the other Agrikian orders.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I guess I always read that as "in spirit"

I would think that the other issues pretty might preclude it from being an "in fact" (Valimin would be brother, the resurrection, etc)


I thought that most/all of the religions would have a philosophical problem with anyone saying that two of the greater gods can mate and produce another greater god. It could leave the door open to new additions of the major gods. But maybe they have already openned the door to that idea. I would have thought that most of the exisitng churches would oppose the idea strongly (whether it is true or posiable is a whole other question).

Without bringing Peoni into the question or question Larani's status as a greater god just implying that Larani is Agrik's (misbehaving) daughter would be a brutal heresy insulting the Laranian church.

I don't know that any Agrikain churches would imply that killing one's own daughter to be a bad thing but it could be given as some sort of reason that Larani was able to defeat Agrik even though he was the stronger.

The "It is often held that Peoni is Larani's mother, in spirit if not in fact" leaves the posibility open that if Larani could be Peoni's daughter why couldn't she be Agrik's? If the churches didn't reject the posibily that Larani could be Peoni's daughter then some Agrikian sect could say "No - not Peoni's daughter - she is Agrik's daughter".

Agrik as father instead of Peoni as mother doesn't raise as many issues with Valamin etc as adding in the rape and Peoni as mother but the rape/Peoni thing seems almost implied at that point.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Maybe Larani wasn't held back by honor at Peoni's request for the resurrection but because Peoni revealed the secret of her birth:

"No Luke - he *is* your father"

The cut off hands and offering Larani's hand are all very Luke-Darth-vader at that point.

And "that which might be forgotten" as told by the church of Larani (Larani's promise to Peoni) might be more like "that which must never be revealed" as told by the Agrikian sect/heresy (the secret of who Larani's father really is).

And perhaps unknown to all but Peoni until that point that Valamin is "Princess Leia" to Larani's "Luke". Unknown to Larani Valamin her "ward" is secretly her brother (or even twin) by Agrik. A secret unknown to any of the churches until now.

Perhaps Peoni wasn't a rape but merely the "proper submission" of a weaker being (Peoni) to a stronger power (Agrik) in the Agrikian natural order of things.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

ImPH (Or p-Kethira), Larani is worshipped in different ways and even in different guises in different parts of the world.

There may well be a "local" (Harn & NW Lythia) "legend" linking Peoni and Larani as mother-daughter. There may well be some semi-heretical (semi or fully, depending on your allegiance) linking Agrik as Larani's father, and even an Agrik-Peoni-Larani combo. Could be.

But is it true? No way for the PCs to find out for sure.

I like stuff like this because it is a cool way to introduce religious schisms and heretical sects.

The "Agrik is her father" story could be true. Doesn't need to be. Doesn't matter if it is or isn't. Maybe Agrik was "holding back" because he didn't want to kill his own daughter, spinning a "dutiful father" excuse for Agrik's defeat.

I don't have it that Agrik is worshipped as a nasty bloodthirsty tyrant in all places where he is worshipped.

For example:
1. The Zerhun article in Thonahexus 9 has Agrik and Larani worshipped in Dalkesh as a duality. That might apply to western Dalkesh and Byria.
2. Further east, in the Beshakan Desert for example, I have Agrik worshipped as a sun god.
3. In other lands, particularly where the Mafani would have influence, I have Agrik worshipped in a form that loosely resembles Zoroastrianism.

The creation myth story for Harn may be how the origins of the gods are understood in NW Lythia, but that is only on the basis of the Condordat being accepted as an "authority text". That version of the story is therefore no more than about 600 years old. Further afield, there are older civilizations. The Mafani Empire, for example, I credit with

I question the emphasis on mythology altogether. Two communities may have identical mythologies, yet worship a particular deity in completely different ways. All that is required is a large enough body of scripture to allow people to pick different parts to emphasize.

What's the problem? Haven't you heard of Kentucky?

Aha, picturing the gods as consanguineous rednecks, now watch out for that vengeful bolt from clear skies.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius