Vemionshire, especially its trails, has been a topic of some arguments lately, not the least because of me.

Trying to make sense of “what is actually there”, I produced two maps, combining data from all possible sources. This data is portrayed on Kaldor maps produced by CGI in the 2000s. (I’ve used here the preview maps freely available on CGI web page.)

Map 1


This is a map with only those trails marked on the Hârn poster map and the Kaldor map of 1986. The Barbarian ranges and Gargun hunting ranges are based on the excellent b/w overview map on the first page of the 1986 Kaldor module. I’ve further enhanced the data on five points:

1) Where the barbarian and gargun ranges mix, I’ve hatched them to add clarity.

2) I’ve added the gargun Hunting range (See HarnDex: Gargu-hyeka). Within this 10-mile radius, organised bands of 20–80 gargun hunt frequently. Understandably, the area within the gargun Hunting range is deadly hostile to men.

3) Where there are gargun hunting grounds outside of the 10-mile radius the actual colonies need, I’ve hatched them even where they do not mix with barbarian ranges. This indicates lower gargun activity. Gargun met here mostly belong to the Felgoth splinter groups (See HarnDex: Felgoth). Hundreds of gargun live and hunt in these regions, but only in small bands. Because of their smaller numbers and lacking cohesion, the gargun here are less deadly to humans than within the Hunting range of the big colonies.

4) I’ve highlighted the trails in Thicesund Forest, i.e. the Silver Way and the trail that connects Silver Way with Vemionshire settlements.

5) I’ve added in red a Patrol range around Vemionshire. This is roughly a day of riding (or two days of walking) away from the settled core areas of Vemionshire. I believe the numbers of Vemionshire military & rangers are capable of regularly and effectively patrolling terrain within this limit. Lands further away (Thicesund and Valdrun to the north and east) are seldom visited, and the Vemionshire lords have in practice no control there.

Looking at the data is sobering in two important ways.

1) It’s clear that humans, settled or barbarian, are at a great disadvantage whenever they enter the gargun Hunting range. Because there is enough land for cultivating and hunting outside of the gagrun Hunting range, humans have normally no reasons to travel into the gargun lands. As a result, it is self-explanatory why there are no permanent trails heading eastwards from the settled part of Vemionshire.

2) Kaldor’s claim of territory is in words only. The royal representative, i.e. the Sheriff of Vemionshire, has no capability of ensuring Kaldorian presence or control in most of Vemionshire. The greatest parts of Thicesund and Valdrun Forests are controlled by the Taelda, the Pagaelin and the gargun.


Map 2


This map adds the trails on the new CGI maps. The trails in eastern Vemionshire (Valdrun Forest) have been highlighted in orange. In addition, the two gold mines on the Sorkin foothills are marked on the map.

For me, the reason for these new trails and the gold mines is totally obscure. Why should they exist? Who has made the trails? Who mines the gold? With the long distances and the ever-present possibility of a nocturnal attack of 20–80 man-eaters, who takes care of the logistics and security (food, men, shipments of gold) of this enterprise? At what cost? If the gold mines produce enough gold for the enterprise to pay out, what amounts of gold are entering the Kaldor market, and what magnitude of inflation is the result?

There is one solution I can imagine: the Felgoth gargun run the gold mines.

In this scenario, the trails connecting Minarsas and Felgoth are actually trade routes. Minarsas & the rest of Vemionshire buy gold from the Felgoth gargun, and this trade is lucrative enough for a permanent trade route akin to the Silver Way to be cleared. Gold ingots travel neatly in small pouches, but the trade goods used in buying the gold from the gargun need good roads – because the gargun prefer animals for food. Perhaps the famous Vemionshire sheep, after their best wool-production years are past, are herded en masse into the Sorkin foothills and fed to the gargun.

Naturally, the Felgoth gold trade is a serious threat for the Azadmere trade. As Kaldorians have found a way to 1) obtain gold, and 2) to live in tolerable peace with the gargun, the hazards of the Silver Way seem more and more futile. And so it was that the gargun, at last, and through trade rather than pillage, brought doom to Azadmere…

YHWV. Have fun.

-ile

Trade with the Gargun cannot have been intended by the mapmakers, could it? Such an arrangement would have certainly been mentioned in canon, wouldn't it? Yet I agree that this idea is the one that makes the most sense. It could be interesting to run a campaign based on this premise.

Or could these be old trails, not much used in hundreds of years?


- Ed

_________________
"Your logic is flawless. But that doesn't mean you're right." - Tedd Good

Yes, it is quite clear that no 'open' trade is mentioned in Canon sources.....yet.

However, Illkka has provided a tantalising view of how a secret trading operation could exist and define the existence of such trails. It reminds me somewhat of the game played by the guild at the 'secret' silver mines in Tharda.

As has been mentioned previously; a lot hinges on what makes a 'trail' and what it needs to be maintained and/or included on a map.

From an economic perspective Illkkas gold mine theory does seem to be the most likely explanantion for there being a living trade artery (or capillary more like) in the region that runs the course as it does. Hunting/trapping/Charcoaling/collecting herbs etc might create as much (or more) traffic in the area but it is difficult to see them following the full course of the route. A reason to travel the wilds at the other end does make sense.

Others have purported that these routes are ancient byeways (dwarven) and as such do not need existing trade to justify their existence and inclusion on a map. This would suggest they would eventually become harder and harder to follow, but are still navigable. Perhaps at one end the humans benefit, the other the gargun.

I myself am developing the Vemionshireside of the Selene way for my game. I took the existence of the trails to be historical and minor due to the lack of reference in Canon. However, I think I share Illka's concern that mapped routes should be used or loosed so to speak; so came up with a different; perhaps less grand explanation for the existence of the Selene way at least.

IMC the Selene way Vemionshireside is indeed used by trappers, prospectors, herb gatherers hunters etc. (In fact, due to Canon references re: Sir Urien Caldeth's current hunting fixation; it is currently revitalised by noble lodging habits and the work associated with this)
IMC it is indeed an old dwarven route; lasting long due to intuitive use of simple engineering and following an almost natural path through the hills and mountains. A man made trail on the flats would have long since evaporated into the trees.

IMC I have also added a sociological/historical? maguffin to explain at least some of the 'traffic' on the route. Without revealing too much to my players (whom I trust implicitly but do not wish to spoil any fun they might get); the route is of some quite intense...academic interest shall we say...and the occasional sholarly party and their companions can be seen taking the old road into the mountains. Not enough to keep a busy trade route clear you understand...but enough at least to occassionally hire work parties from nearby manors...and elicit the support of Sir Morgals vain rangers.................

In addition to this there is another cultural raison d'etre for the upkeep of the vemionshire side of the route; but that is top secret and I would have to kill you all if I told you.........

Anyway, I digress. None of my developments exclude Illka's gold mine proposition; and they do not explain the fullness of the trail as well as his...but I thought I would indicate that there just might be stranger things on heaven and earth that are dreamt of to explain things than pure economic viability (via...geddit )

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Canon states that the gârgun are very fond of silver, so perhaps it would be worth trading silver to the gârgun for gold and then trading the gold for silver back in Kaldor. Still, the act of trading old mutton on the hoof (and any other old beasts) to them would be immensely profitable. Also, in recent canon it is mentioned that possession of gold is actually illegal.
I'm sure this trade is kept secret. I can't imagine the Laranian Church or fighting order being very keen on the notion of feeding large numbers of future enemies. Some of the more far-sighted nobles (notably the Earl) might also think this a bad idea.
So, we are talking about a few danger-seeking men who will take great risks in the hope of great profit, and who are not very good at long-range thinking. In fact, this sounds like a job for PCs!

_________________
Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

My understanding is that there no gold mines in the Sorkin foothills. There are some reports of gold flakes being found in rivers in the area. But no proper gold mines.

Anborn

Hi all,

In event anyone is wondering where the gold mines shown on the new CGI maps come from, they are not new "creations." They actually date back to 1984, Encyclopedia Harnica #11. Reference to the mines can be found on page 4 of the Ilme article written by Edwin King. At the time, N. Robin Crossby was still an active member of the writing team and is credited as Creative Consultant. The relevant reference reads:



TTYL

- Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

I'm not familiar with the work done on this topic previously, either canon or fanon, but if the basis for all this is the above-quoted reference to placer gold, that seems like a fairly thin justification for trails of this kind. The presence of placer gold implies, at least to me, limited quantities which may indicate a full alluvial deposit worthy of a proper mine. Doesn't necessarily mean that there is a mine in operation, certainly not one worthy of the great effort required to extract and transport the ore. Am I missing some later reference that increases the validity of those sites?

PaladinSix

Hi,

On the issue of trails...

I spent a year in Syria. One of the more interesting things I came across in my time there was the road to one of our observation posts. The modern access route used parts of the original roman road from Damascus to Tyre (Tyrus). Part of the reason was that the original road was already in the optimum location for a route.

Harn was settled for millenia before the arrival of humans. It has already been established in canon that Khuzdul and Sindarin lived and travelled across the island. The Silver Way is a long established Khuzdul trade route. It makes sense to me that the the Khuzdul would have built other routes in the 6200 years between their arrival on Harn in 6900BT and the Battle of Sorrows in 683BT.

No detail is given about the "trails" marked on new maps. Are they broad gently sloping paths or a narrow game trail?

In my opinion, these are the remnants of Khuzdul paths/roads. If well built, a road bed, even without maintenance for the last 1400 years, will still be there in the same location. If the route was well chosen, obstacles such as boulders removed and some lasting improvements made (cutting ledges into hillsides, reducing the slopes of banks approaching fords etc), then the route will be still be easier than trekking through uncharted/unimproved bush. Of course, there will be changes. Fallen trees, landslides, washouts, all will cause the trail to deteriorate, but if large stretches are still intact, this "traditional route" would still be easier to follow than blazing a new trail.

In the UK, large chunks of the roman road network still exist, 1600 years after the romans departed Britain. Most of the modern main roads follow the general route the romans laid out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads_in_Britain

It is my personal belief that the same is true of Harn. I think that routes such as the Genin Trail, Silver Way, Noron's Way, the Fur Road and the Salt Route tend to follow ancient paths laid out by the Khuzdul millenia ago. After all, the easiest route between two points continues to be the easiest route until something changes.

I liken the trails shown on the Vemionshire map to the few remaining original roman roads in the UK. Roads that were important are still being used (i.e. the Genin Trail). They have been built over/repaired hundreds of times to the point where the original physical road is lost and only the route remains. But the trails shown on the map are like original roman road, unmodified / unimproved. They have become overgrown and reduced to a narrow track because the (Khuzan) destination they used to go to is no longer important to the new inhabitants (Humans).

Canon states that the Khuzdul lived in the mountains, even after the arrival of humans. It makes sense to me that they would have had an extensive network of roads, perhaps between places that are no longer extant. The Inca built trails throughout the Andes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_trails

A large number of them are still in use, even 500 years after the empire that built them is long gone. They are maintained of course, but the original foundations are still the same stones in many places.

Overall, I think that it is not unreasonable to believe that the Khuzdul could have built a large network of trails or even roads throughout the Sorkin Mountains and that humans, gargun and many other species (including the Khuzdul) still continue to use the remnants of these routes.

This is not to say that they are broad, paved routes that are kept free of overgrowth, but rather they are simply the "traditional, easiest route" that everyone has used "since time immemorial". Traffic may be light/infrequent, but the trail is still there.

TTYL

- Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Damn! Kerry beat me to it.

It's also my opinion that the trails are old Khuzan roads, just like old Roman roads are still passable today. Just because a trail is shown doesn't mean it is regularly traveled.

You should also remember that the maps are for GMs to use, not for players to have. So the GM can come up with any reason for the trails they feel is justified. Which means that Ilkka's reasoning is just as valid as Kerry's and mine. I like the idea, actually. Even if I think it's less likely (according to my internal logicometer), I could easily weave the idea of sheep eating gargun gold miners into my campaign.



Ilkka, do you have larger versions of those maps? I'd be intrigued to get a closer look at them.

_________________
Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

Dear all...

All this ancient dwarven bye-way talk puts me in mind of much of the tolkien calender artistry of the road to rivendell (artist name anybody...John? Hobbes? No....) with brickwork and pavements overgrown with moss and grass.........

IMHO this conceit of an older (more civilized?) template of previous inhabitants is a british/tolkienesque/crossbyesque image that is hard to shake loose from and informs much of the mythology of Harn. IMHO it has a lot to do with Tolkiens explicit attempts to re-mysticize English literature with a contructed faerie past a la nordic mythology..........

So no wonder the myth laden scands baulk at the illogical need to send trails into nothingness for mysteriousness... They are still bogged own by the old conceit of making sense of the world. Not by the world weary fantasy of making magic of it

I dissemble for argumentativeness alone..

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

I like the concept of these being old dwarven paths/roads. Travelers on those paths might then stumble on some hidden ruins or the like.

As to gold mines - if these are recently found they may be still operated only by a few prospectors. Figuring out how to exploit these finds and setting up a profitable operation sounds like an adventure seed. Something the king, sheriff of Vemion, earl of Vemion and the Mangai are all interested in. This would also give an impetus for Kaldor to occupy these areas, as keeps are required to hold the Gargun and barbarians at bay. Perhaps the king would even designate this as a new march to elevate some dashing up and coming young knight...

I've been thinking on how to proceed from my Earl's Progress campaign and this gives me lots of ideas.

On the issue of gold...

Canon states that the only commercial "source" of gold is the Khuzdul of Azadmere. There are numerous silver mines across Kaldor and the rest of Harn, but no other gold mines.

I agree with PK, I think that "at most" there are a few hardy miners currently panning for gold in the gargun infested Sorkin Mountains (who knows, maybe Ilkka is right and the miners are actually gargun). However, if the people of Kaldor suddenly realised that there was a major new source of gold in the Sorkin Mountains, you could end up with a Darl (or Sorkin) GOLD RUSH.

Canada had the massive Klondike gold rush beginning in 1897.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klondike_Gold_Rush

Just imagine the impact on Vemionshire, if it was suddenly reported that there was gold for the taking in the bed of the Darl River. Although there is a large gargun colony at Felgoth (1100 gargun-hyeka, the common or brown orc, the "mining" orc), the discovery of a large and valuable gold deposit could be just the impetus necessary to force Kaldor to attack and wipe out the colony to make the area safe for mining.

I see many adventuring opportunities in this.

- miners sent to check the validity of the claims of gold
- escorts for the miners
- scouts to check the area for gargun (both the colony and roving bands)
- scouts to observe Felgoth and gather information for an attack
- scouts to recce the route capable of handling a force large enough to attack Felgoth
- clearing / repairing the trail to accept a large force
- being part of the soldiers, Lady of Paladins, mercenaries that make up the main body
- participation in a large scale attack on Felgoth (Battlelust?)
- participation in the bands send out to hunt down and destroy the larger roving bands of orcs
- security for the miners along the Darl River
- setting up the placer mining
- policing the competing miners
- hunting down the "motherlode" source of the gold (in Algon's Cave)
- exploring the cave (are there Khuzdul down there?)
- if you find the motherlode, setting up the gold mine
- establishing a (semi) permanent community with defences (to run the mine)
- escorting gold shipments to Minarsas and beyond
- dealing with human brigands

Alternately (and in my mind, more likely):

- rumours spread of free gold for the taking in the Sorkin Mountains
- rush of freemen heading for "somewhere in Vemionshire"
- masses of people who don't know "exactly" where they are going
- Minarsas is overwhelmed with would-be miners with no idea of where they are going or what they will need when they get there
- brigands / thieves having a heyday with this ignorant "rubes"
- a gradual migration towards the trails leading up to the Darl River
- barbarian / brigand / gargun ambushes on the masses of poorly armed and equipped "miners" making their way into the hills
- masses of "want-be miners" decending on the Darl River
- fights over claims
- robbery, murder, mayhem
- large scale gargun raids on the miners in the Darl River
- miners taking things into their own hands and killing any gargun they can get their hands on
- several massacres on a large scale on both sides (human and gargun)
- calls on the King / Earl / Sheriff to "protect the miners from the evil gargun"
- poorly organized, undersized military expeditions to attack Felgoth
- a military disaster
- news of the disaster forces the King to mount a serious expedition
- King sends a large force
- (pick up from list above)

Wow, just off the top of head, can see that the "Darl Gold Rush" could evolve into a massive campaign.

TTYL

- Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Be quiet Kerry! my players are listening!

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Does anybody know of any equivalent gold/silver/whatever rushes from medieval Europe? Is there enough freemen around to really support such a rush?

I am inclining to think efforts to tap such a resource would be more of a top-down effort as the earl/sheriff/king scrambles to improve their own finances.

So, there are no gold mines, but a rumour of gold found at the shores of the Tontury Lake? That's good for me. But why put mines on the maps, then?

Old Khuzan roads will do for me. Heavily overgrown since the gargun... 600 years of bush and roots tearing on the pavement... The legendary Selene Way of the ancient maps no-one can find anymore...

On the other hand, I'll agree with you guys that the westerly trails, within or near the "Patrol range", especially those running north to south, can be readily explained with, well, regular patrols.

I don't see people regularly traveling within the gargun hunting grounds, which are mountainous and heavily forested, i.e. hard to travel, easy to fall to an ambush. More than that, what the human population of Vemionshire needs from the forests can be readily obtained within the "Patrol range". There are not so many hunters and foresters there, really. Perhaps a thousand at most in a population of 20.000-25.000. There's enough forest for them to use within a couple of days' walk. Also in the north and west. No need to take risks with nocturnal man-eaters.

Must be the gargun then. Brutal hunters tramping the vegetation just because they are so orkish. Orky?

Anyways, I think I've promoted my interpretation enough now. Our Hârns Will Vary.

Thanks for taking on the gargun gold mine idea. It was meant to be a joke, but you dead-earnest serious Hârn-fans made more of it.




Yes. I've got a Vemionshire master map several times the size of those posted here, with layers and stuff. The two maps above are "photos" of it with different layers. But it's based on the CGI previews, so that you cannot zoom to actually read the location names.

PM me what you want, and I'll post it to you.

Putting the info of several maps on top of each other opens challenging views on Vemionshire present and past.

-ile

European sources of precious metals have been pretty well known already before medieval times. Rather than rushing for new sources, the medieval mining history is one of retooling for deeper mining. Mostly.



On Hârn? Depends on the size of the mine. Medieval mines could be run by a couple of freeman part-time farmers. On Hârn, runaway serfs could count too, because serving in the mines is a way away from serfdom. What you need is one (journeyman) Miner, and a writ from the king.



Sounds plausible to me.

-ile

This is no Far West/Eldorado/Gold Mountain to drain immigrants from all over a post-industrial revolution world. So even the terms "Gold Rush" strike me as fairly out of place/out of time.

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

While I like the idea, I would think that the extensive network of roads would have provided better commuting between Azadmere and Kald-basin.

_________________
Running: AD&D / When a star falls
Running: MERP / Woses of the black wood

Hello,

I did some quick internet searching on medieval mining for gold. It appears "panning" for gold (placer mining) was the most common method for finding gold in the middle ages. The technology was well known since roman times and was never really lost.

http://www.minelinks.com/alluvial/goldMedieval.html






I don't know. That was Tom Dalgliesh's decision.

One thing is that there is no symbol for just gold. There is also no criteria for how big an operation has to be to be worthy of the mine symbol. One miner, ten, twenty, one hundred? I think you will find that the mine symbols on all the maps are pretty vague.

For example, using the old EH Kaldor articles, the mine of Tonsia in Lynnfana Hundred (the nearest mine to the gold mines in question) has 12 rural households. Sitvelen in Navintas has only 8 households. The average seems to be around 15 - 17 households. Does that imply 15 - 17 miners? The places named are usually small vilages near a mine. If there is no village, then there could be more or less miners and their families live elsewhere.

I think it is believeable that there could be 10 miners in each spot. Would that qualify for a mine symbol? Placer mining is not like hard rock mining, all you need is a shallow metal (or even wooden) pan. Such a group could be quite mobile. Perhaps that is how they evade the gargun?

In any event, I think it is safe to say that if you want mines there then you can have them, if you don't then they can simply be considered sites where gold COULD be mined.



Actually, I thought it was kind of a cool idea that has all sorts of possible applications.

In one campaign I was in, we actually traded with gargu-kyani. They traded gold for silver (at par!). Trust me, if we could have worked up a regular trading agreement, we would have!

Just imagine, a group of gargun discover that humans will trade them all sorts of valuable stuff (food, tools, animals) for some useless soft yellow rock you can pick up out of the river, I can see how they would be willing to do it. The question is how did they arrange the first trade?

There is precedent for this sort of trade at Hlejis (see the Shorkyne module), a gargu-kyani (white orc) complex in the Harbalese Alps, where gargun and humans trade regularly.



Given the very low population density of Harn, I would not be surprised if there were still major mineral deposits to be discovered. The fact that this placer gold is found in a river that comes out of a cave raises the possibility that the gold is actually coming from an old Khuzan mine. This makes sense and would explain how a know source was "forgotten".



One of the most important rights of a free man is the right of departure. Even in a low population circumstance as in Kaldor, I can imagine something in the order of a hundred to a few hundred freemen leaving poor paying jobs to seek their fortune in the gold fields. Especially younger sons with little prospect of inheriting the farm. There are 604 manors in Kaldor. Even if only one free man from each manor came to the gold rush, that is still a large number (almost equal to the population of Minarsas (650 people)).



Ideally yes. However, my faith in the nobility's ability to organize, finance and execute such a project is considerably less than my faith in shear human greed to "get rich quick". I think that hundreds of would-be miners with a pan and hope would get their first (and probably most of them would die trying). A well organized project financed and led by the nobility has a greater chance of succeeding, mind you.



Term it what you like. I still think that if a new source of gold was discovered relatively near a Harnic kingdom there would be some ambitious people who would be willing to risk their lives to "get rich quick". It seems to be human nature.

Actually, the sort of people I think would be most likely to head off into the unknown in search of great wealth are those most commonly referred to as "adventurers". A thoroughly detestable lot known for killing, raping, pillaging and generally causing mayhem...actually it sounds like the perfect mission for a few player groups I have run!



If you read my Silver Way article, you will see that I have shown that there used to be a quite good road (suitable for carts but too steep for wagons) between Azadmere and the Kald basin, however it crossed a bridge at the Guthe River gorge. When the Khuzdul withdrew into Azadmere after the Battle of Sorrows, they collapsed the bridge on purpose to limit contact with humans. Now all traffic must take a long detour (following the original route) to the lowest fordable point on the Guthe River (above the gorge).

TTYL

- Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

So from hundreds of credulous gold diggers swarming all over Minârsas in their haste to get slaughtered by gârgùn, we're down to a handful of 'professional' adventuring bands? I was initially appalled by the scale of the gold rush you seemed to be envisioning, but with the apparent reduction in scale, I have nothing left to object about here.



Kerry, here you're either delusional or joking; you can't 'show' such a thing, only decide it and then write an article about it.

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Now that we have established that the gold 'rush' would be a gold 'slight hurry in an orderly fashion'; and that you cannot prove things about an imaginary world; what is our collective opinion as to the legal ownership of such gold sources?

Would it be finders keepers if panning? Miners guild? The Earl? The Crown?

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

For my campaign, I am thinking along the following lines:

1. KSC has just broken out by Miginath croaking and Maldan Harabor producing documents according to which old Miginath had acknowledged him and Koris as his own already a year ago. Everybody is crying foul. Tulath Kaphin produces a similar document which is decried by all as forgery. Everybody retreats to their holdings to sulk while negotiations are underway who are on the succession council (eventually two will form to proclaim two different kings while claiming the other council was illegal - and Maldan is not the other king...)

2. Meanwhile Earl of Vemion has retreated to Minarsas and desperately tries to raise cash to support his candidate for the throne (who is not Maldan's candidate). Maldan's camp has captured the royal treasury (although it is ostensibly held in trust for future king), is the favorite of the Mangai and therefore holds a distinct financial advantage which is only improving by time. Fortunately the earl has learned about the potential mines only a little while ago.

3. The Earl mounts a secret mining operation. It has to be a secret because he wants all of the proceeds and doesn't want to involve the Mangai and he doesn't want to tip the Mangai more in favor of Maldan's camp. Also if Maldan hears of this he can rightfully claim the proceeds should go to the royal treasury (effectively Maldan's grubby hands.
All of the above requires the characters to
- scout the mines
- set up the mines
- escort transport
- deal with Gargun - and they don't have the strength to take the Gargun out completely
- deal with information leaks
- retrieve documents from Tashal which might be used to claim the mines are located in Vemion's fief after all
etc

According to HarnPlayer (Miner’s Guild entry, page 106), mines are owned by the crown (King). “An earl or baron whose fief includes a silver mine is out of luck; the revenue it produces is not his.” I am certain that this would ESPECIALLY apply to a gold mine.

I think the more interesting question is how do you define the boundaries of a placer mine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placer_mine

Placer mining can cover a wide area, frequently far up and down both sides of a river/stream. Miners typically work upstream from the first point they find gold looking for the “mother lode.”

So, lets assume that someone finds a gold nugget in the Darl River, probably just sitting on the surface. Soon, miners are panning for gold, looking for rich sites. Within a season or two, I imagine the miners will locate the greatest concentrations of nuggets and will establish larger operations (requiring many men) to reroute the stream/river and dig up the riverbed to look for more gold nuggets. I am certain that the King would claim such lucrative sites (through an exclusive contract to the Miner’s Guild).

In my mind, the bigger issue is what about the rest of the gold? I am certain that smaller finds of gold will be discovered all down the river, a nugget here and a nugget there. What happens to those nuggets? They are small, easy to conceal and very valuable.

According to the Gardiren article (page 8 ), ownership of more than £10 of gold is a monopoly of the crown. Whether this is a wise law or even seriously enforceable is probably the subject for a whole other thread! For example, is that £10 per person? Is it £10 per adult? Could a wealthy noble hold £10 of gold per member of his family (including his children) in one central place for safekeeping? Does this include only raw gold, or does it apply to coins and jewelry too? This “law” raises more questions than it answers. It was another late addition to the article after it was submitted to CGI.

Personally, I do not like or use the £10 gold limit from the Gardiren article in my pHarn. I think that Harn is much like our third world. Whenever people have a little extra money, they buy jewelry (mostly silver, but some gold). Gold chain is light, portable and very valuable for the weight. Outfitting your wife with a few gold necklaces, bracelets, rings and earrings has the double effect of showing your wealth and acting as an emergency bank account. When times are hard, it is easy enough to sell off the gold, one link at a time, to pay the bills.

The value of gold is another question. According to HarnPlayer (page 19), a Khuzan Gold Crown, 1 ounce, is worth 320d +. However, on the page before that (page 18), the value of gold is listed at 400d per ounce. Also, we must consider the purity of the nuggets found.

If we assume that nuggets are 60% pure and gold is 400d per ounce of PURE gold (I am assuming that Khuzan Crowns have some other metal content to make them more durable and thus have a value slightly less than pure gold), then nuggets would probably sell for something like 240d an ounce. Therefore, possession of up to about 10 ounces of gold nuggets would be legal.

The next question is whom do you sell them to? Normally, I would say you would sell them to the jeweler’s guild, however since the miner’s guild has the monopoly on metal from the crown, in this case, I would say you would be required to sell them to the miner’s guild. What would be the rules for this? If someone was walking along a river, saw a gold nugget lying on the surface and picked it up, are they breaking the law? Have they violated the King’s ownership of all metals? Have they violated guild privilege?

I think this would be unrealistic and impractical. In my opinion, anyone can find gold, as long as they sold it to the nearest miner guild master (at a knock down price). The miner’s guild would then refine the gold to a high purity and sell it to the crown (at wholesale prices). In my pHarn, the crown then sells its surplus gold (whatever it does not keep for the royal treasury) to the jeweler’s guild at just below the retail value. The jeweler’s guild then makes gold into jewelry, which it sells to the general public (mainly the nobility and wealthier merchant class) at just over the value of pure, raw gold.

My thoughts, your mileage may vary…

TTYL

- Kerry Mould

_________________
Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. - Mal, Firefly.

Having unenforceable totally arbitrary rules which are forgotten until at the most inopportune time some counsel reads the rule aloud from an old dusty parchment sounds like nice plot twist opportunity to me and not too out of place.

If the mines are monopoly of the crown and mining monopoly of the guild, the earl of Vemion has doubly reason to keep his operation secret.

So the gârgún are seeding the Dârl river with the otherwise useless to them gold nuggets they sometimes find while mining, in the hope of luring some tender human treats? Sounds sensible to me.

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius