Forming new orders?

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Kebron
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Forming new orders?

#1 Post by Kebron » Wed May 17, 2017 9:43 am

So one of the big things in HL is orders, clerical orders, fighting orders , etc.
It has always been my understanding that if you can get enough people together with enough funding and resources and a legitimately RP'd reason you can form your own organization with a minimum of immortal assistance.
That being said I've never seen a PC founded clerical order in game, which to me seems odd seeing as if you look at the backstory of some of the religious orders out there they sprung up over relatively minor disputes in dogma or for a specific, purpose filling a void.
So what would the process be, if it is even possible, to form a new clerical order in HL without incurring godly or royal wrath.
The reason being that some of the guidelines of some of the orders don't make a whole lot of sense in a HL's setting. In a harn tabletop around the year 600 they make sense. But the world has changed and evolved dramatically and it would seem to me that having pragmatic orders designed to fill holes in our own harn reality makes more sense than trying to write characters to fit a shoehorned build for a clerical order that may or may not have much purpose.
Here are some examples of ideas that would fill holes in our world.

Considering our adventure driven RPT styles a Sav'K'noran group of warrior priests who's sole task is to intervene in supernatural occurances with the intent to bolster the concordat. There have been several RPT's based around events that skirt the edge of the concordat and while sometimes you'll have a Sav'k'noran in attendance they're usually their for intelligence and don't seem to have much of a leadership role in it. They aren't driving the plot even though they have the most IC reason to WANT to drive it. To hunt down the monster controled by the bracelet, the destroy the goblet that raises skeletons, to contain the youth stealing vampire feeding on peonians, to ensure the concordat isn't broken.

An order of Morgathians to reinstate the theocracy of Tekhos. They once ruled the world, why would they ever become hippy half-good guys biding their time indefinately? Where are the warrior arcana priest of morgath to lead them? where are the politicians to back them? They have IC power but the current clans seems to have a mandate to play nice when they should by right be trying to take back what was once their birthright. They are daenarys returning with her dragons, except instead of dragons they are leading an army of ghouls in an orgy of blood and chaos.

An order of Laranians to actually do GOOD things. Not just feudal good things, I'm not talking just knights in shining armor but ACTUAL paladins. Pauper warriors lending a hand wherever possible in whatever form possible to good for the sake of good without the restriction of feudal politics. Think the templars in the crusades before they became a bank when they were modest monks.

An ACTUAL fighting order for soliathars that isn't entirely female driven. Yes I get that Halea favors women over men, but does that mean that all halean solithars would be relegated to being the personal bodyguard of a single corathar like has been the HL standard for ages? Why isn't there more of a mission than screw drink and follow around the current fme like an animated NPC. Trade is important, why aren't they taking lead on protecting the salt route, they're the OBVIOUS answer, they're not prescribed anywhere and they have no beef with agrik or Larani so in HL terms it makes way more sense to have them be the intermediaries at times in certain parts of the isle. Guard caravans, even non halean ones, because trade is good and more trade means more profits for haleans. Stakeholders vs shareholders. You can benefit from something without owning it and anyone in business should know that. Since they're the kings of business, why don't they?

Truly evil agrikans! Ones that aren't tied to a country that aren't beholden to a law that are absolutely and entirely unfettered by politics. This one would be hard to get off the ground and even harder to survive long term but perfectly viable with a little planning. There are loads of defenseable remote areas that could be conquered and contained to increase wealth and without the oversight of a government your hands wouldn't be tied.
The opposite of the laranians, evil for the sake of evil. Sadists of self promotion.

I guess my point is, why are we asking people to write a background that fits them into a preexisting organization with no players in it that will offer them no interaction when we could just let them form their own ICly and fill a hole that would bring actual use to the role.
I know when I was an achesa I was bored out of my mind and it's been the same with some other roles. Too many orders have you sitting around waiting for something to happen that falls into their pervue instead of creating a pervue that actually happens to fulfill a need.
Just my point of view.
So what would someone have to do?

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Re: Forming new orders?

#2 Post by harleyquinade » Thu May 18, 2017 2:23 am

Kebron wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:43 am
An ACTUAL fighting order for soliathars that isn't entirely female driven. Yes I get that Halea favors women over men, but does that mean that all halean solithars would be relegated to being the personal bodyguard of a single corathar like has been the HL standard for ages? Why isn't there more of a mission than screw drink and follow around the current fme like an animated NPC. Trade is important, why aren't they taking lead on protecting the salt route, they're the OBVIOUS answer, they're not prescribed anywhere and they have no beef with agrik or Larani so in HL terms it makes way more sense to have them be the intermediaries at times in certain parts of the isle. Guard caravans, even non halean ones, because trade is good and more trade means more profits for haleans. Stakeholders vs shareholders. You can benefit from something without owning it and anyone in business should know that. Since they're the kings of business, why don't they?
If a Solithar wanted to become a mercenary, by what you are describing, than they should honestly just leave the Halean fighting order, period. The point of the Solithar guarding a circle 2 or circle 3 priestess, btw, I believe is more for investment sake. They wouldn't invest protection for a circle 1 so much, but once the clerical member reaches circle 2 or 3, they become more valuable. They can only do so much to protect themselves, so the Solithar's priorities need to be with guarding the clergy as their main objective.

Yes, the religion does favor the female clerical figures. If they were to go patrolling the salt route at all times, then they should at last bring a circle 2 or circle 3 Halean clergy with them (so that they can still be guarded, but can possibly be put to use) or... Yes, if the soldier is not guarding the clerical members, then what point is it to be a Solithar, period? You might as well be something else at that point. There is a reason not alot of PCs tend to play these, unfortunately.

Now, I don't know if you are trying to suggest that a secondary role for Solithar be created to act more like a soldier when it comes to patrolling and what not, but... It seems a bit pointless imo when the solithar and a clergy member can go out, themselves.

I can tell you for sure though that if an actual Solithar is not performing their duties properly, they -will- be punished. Although it might be kinky for them, especially if they are a masochist, and they might enjoy it. ;)

Kebron wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:43 am
An order of Morgathians to reinstate the theocracy of Tekhos. They once ruled the world, why would they ever become hippy half-good guys biding their time indefinately? Where are the warrior arcana priest of morgath to lead them? where are the politicians to back them? They have IC power but the current clans seems to have a mandate to play nice when they should by right be trying to take back what was once their birthright. They are daenarys returning with her dragons, except instead of dragons they are leading an army of ghouls in an orgy of blood and chaos.

When it comes to Morgathians, they may seem nice on the surface, but their objectives should be otherwise behind the scenes. They -should- be performing sacrifices whenever possible. If they were to go all out and be completely out of control, then they would most likely lose their place in TB if that is what you are trying to get at. I will say it is very difficult to play this role in general, at least decently enough.


I can't really speak on the other examples you just presented, as I have no experience with them, but I do kinda like the Laranian idea. Especially since they tend to be corrupted, themselves.
Last edited by harleyquinade on Thu May 18, 2017 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#3 Post by Dulci » Thu May 18, 2017 3:21 am

From what I understand, I'd guess it'd be a "if you build it, they will come" type of deal. No support from staff, try to fund and organize and explain your divergent group, and if you survive and grow, then you exist.

Anything is possible, but if you go against the status quo, expect some resistance from the establishment, and certainly no funding or support you can't raise yourself.

Morgie's and Agrikans are too tame and not looking to take over the world.. sounds like the higher clergy might be happy in their cushy position. They don't want zealots upsetting things while they sit on top of their little pile. That's true is real life politics. idealistic Laranian paladins going around being heroic and shaming the established bishops for their lazy, hoarding, and possibly corrupt ways... Denounce them as heretics and liars! Fake news! Zealots are often treated that way by those in power.

If the desire is to just have a new group created because you don't like the ones available or think they're outdated, then go for it.. but it has to be organic. No sudden retcon or creation of something out of the ether.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#4 Post by Kebron » Thu May 18, 2017 9:00 am

My examples weren't the best because I was spitballing off the top of my head admittedly.
I think to me it's more of a player frustration thing. You get someone who creates a cleric of X diety, or a fighting order member then they find out that they are basically window dressing and can't really do anything. It's easier to point out the flaws than to provide an example (without writing up an entire character concept).

For solithars I mentioned them because I know from personal experience and knowing players that have played them that it gets tedious quick. There may not be a priestess in your region depending (I think currently they're represented but idk I don't get out much). But the ones I've played and the ones I've known had the same issue, you start, you get some basic dark kurbul and maybe access to a trainer and a small stipend and... That's it.
You wait around for a cleric to give you something to do , but in most cases you either end up the playtoy of a corathar or standing around waiting for them while they're in the baths and following them when they're in the inn/tavern/at prayers etc. Icly they're supposed to be these elite, well groomed, fighting types but they end up pretty much being bell hops with big...swords, so after a little bit the same old grind gets tedious and unless you tie yourself to a cleric that is a mover and shaker (which there don't seem to be very many) You don't get much to do. You can't be online 24/7 when your master is so when they really need you (assasination attempt) you likely won't be there. So it can be a frustrating role.

For laranians I've seen this LOADS. They start out super idealic. Then they realize that their leadership is corrupt or that they basically can't really do anything. They're not soldiers so they can't really enforce the law outside of special circumstances so outside of large scale RPT's it tends to be alot of training and innsitting. If they do try to assert some authority they're likened to the inquisition , ostrasized from the player base (what was that thing BH put in announcements a while back? Avoiding Rping with people so they go away?) or just outright told to stfu and ignored. This tends to lead them to become bitter ICly and surly little squirrels which just reinforces the appearance that agrikans are for lack of a better word, dicks. Because it's hard to be a nice guy fighter when people treat you like an jerk all the time no matter what you do even if it is period/region/religion appropriate.

Morgathians I agree with you on, what you describe is how it SHOULD be. But having played one a few times only sometimes do you get a leader with vision and that makes all the difference. If you have someone who is plotty and schemy and active and has a game plan then you can do that but by and far I've seen alot of them who are just opportunistic killers but otherwise "ok" guys. So afraid of bucking the system and losing staff support and becoming proscribed that they won't take any risks, and many actively opposed their own basic tennets. Stereotypically creepy is about the extent of some of their plan, which ends up becoming alot of solo RP and again, leads to player loss. TB is a special case so I get that there, but TB isn't the only place in play. Yet I suspect if I wrote up an app for an Thardan or Orbaalese Morg intent on bringing back the theocracy he'd likely just get killed by his own people to keep him quiet and status quo even if he wasn't in Trobridge and had nothing to do with them period.

I could be wrong and I'm not very elequent or good at getting my idea across sometimes but the summary of it is, there are things that certain orders COULD do, it's ALMOST their lane, but because of whatever reason it's not ICLY , some of it is due to player mistakes years ago and some of it was written that way. But HL is not entirely cannon anymore.

So if I wanted to form my own clerical order, I just... Do it? Say I am no longer a member of the shield of shattered sorrow but a member of insert fancypants coolio name here and just fake it til I atract some kind of followers? I'm not asking for assistance or funding, I'm not asking for status or privalege, I'm asking if you'd automaticaly lose all of your rituals the moment you went to do this and be labeled a heretic for wanting to do something slightly different but the same.

I for one would be all about being a do gooder laranian if there was actually good to do, or a concordat breaking hunter sav'k'noran. I just don't think it'd be allowed more than anything.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#5 Post by blackhorde » Thu May 18, 2017 9:22 am

Kebron wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 9:00 am
I'm asking if you'd automaticaly lose all of your rituals the moment you went to do this and be labeled a heretic
Depends. If you kept it low key and under the radar of the church you -spawned- from while remaining adherent to the values of your deity it would be fine.

If you failed either of those the deity would cut you off or the church would try to hunt you down as a heretic. So if you hadn't built a power base you'd be on the run or worse.

That's just realistic repercussions.
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Re: Forming new orders?

#6 Post by Kebron » Thu May 18, 2017 10:30 am

So theoreticaly an laranian 3rd circle could retire from his order (quietly) and form a old school knights templar style order of poverty stricken monks (pre banking status) but if they ever went full scale like the knights templar did they may be subject to the same thing that happened to them in real life, IE declared heretics and witches and hunted down.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#7 Post by someguyagain » Thu May 18, 2017 11:22 am

If you are an honored member of blaah, go to your boss and make your arguments. Maybe they will give you some support. If not, try for a cordial parting of ways. (This applies to some faiths/groups more than others. Some may want to go straight for the secret hideout.)

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Re: Forming new orders?

#8 Post by whorology » Thu May 18, 2017 12:48 pm

Okay this isn't a new religious order I want to know about, but realistically how hard would it be to start up another mercenary company, Possibly in Tharda but I need to look up the lore and see if that would be the easiest place or not. I know you would need alot of money and probably friends In high places unless tour packing alot of pc fire power. But other than the agreement of the kingdom you want to trade in and the wealth to trade and finance with. Is there anything I'm not thinking of?
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Re: Forming new orders?

#9 Post by droll » Thu May 18, 2017 6:27 pm

whorology wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 12:48 pm
Okay this isn't a new religious order I want to know about, but realistically how hard would it be to start up another mercenary company, Possibly in Tharda but I need to look up the lore and see if that would be the easiest place or not. I know you would need alot of money and probably friends In high places unless tour packing alot of pc fire power. But other than the agreement of the kingdom you want to trade in and the wealth to trade and finance with. Is there anything I'm not thinking of?
Realistically, 2 RPP and start in one of the four of five guilds that can do well and make sense for a combatant, and then scare up..I don't know, 18-20 thousand dram as fast as you can. This would only manage to cover the basics: a couple of personal npcs, equipment, licenses, a building, horse or two, etc etc. If you don't have 2 RPP, you'll need an additional 7 thousand dram for citizenship in game. That will be just enough to get you absolutely slaughtered on the Salt Route the first time the barbarians swarm you. The Tulwyn and the Pagealin can put up numbers of 12+ at a time on occasion, after a few other fights. So, while you are still trying to get all that covered, you will need to make friends and get a tremendous amount of PC fire power to actually do what you are trying to do.

The other option to reduce some of the costs and make some friendly contacts in Tharda is to join the Legion in game for a couple of real life years, but you'll eventually have to turn around and come up with most of that. Forming new mercenary companies or even attempting to start new religious orders is a tough route that takes a lot of time and resources.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#10 Post by harleyquinade » Fri May 19, 2017 1:24 am

Kebron wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 9:00 am
For solithars I mentioned them because I know from personal experience and knowing players that have played them that it gets tedious quick. There may not be a priestess in your region depending (I think currently they're represented but idk I don't get out much). But the ones I've played and the ones I've known had the same issue, you start, you get some basic dark kurbul and maybe access to a trainer and a small stipend and... That's it.
You wait around for a cleric to give you something to do , but in most cases you either end up the playtoy of a corathar or standing around waiting for them while they're in the baths and following them when they're in the inn/tavern/at prayers etc. Icly they're supposed to be these elite, well groomed, fighting types but they end up pretty much being bell hops with big...swords, so after a little bit the same old grind gets tedious and unless you tie yourself to a cleric that is a mover and shaker (which there don't seem to be very many) You don't get much to do. You can't be online 24/7 when your master is so when they really need you (assasination attempt) you likely won't be there. So it can be a frustrating role.
I'm sure for Solithar, it can be frustrating, which is why the clergy end up just with an npc Solithar at circle 2 and 3 anyhow. I can understand why most wouldn't want to play this role, other than actually getting *ahem* attention from the Corathar and what not. It's honestly hard for the individual playing the clergy too. You do have very little to do most of the time, but it has been alot of fun for me personally otherwise and I felt really in tune with this role more than anything else. Although it is a challenge to rp as an npc solithar and yourself as a Corathar. ;)

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Re: Forming new orders?

#11 Post by AndersArvidsson » Sat May 20, 2017 8:32 am

What about a Morgathian who views the Bukrai as an evil force corrupting the kind and caring god of death from his divine task, and using the shadow and raising the dead as blasphemy.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#12 Post by zargen » Sat May 20, 2017 9:51 pm

Heresy!

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Re: Forming new orders?

#13 Post by Kebron » Sun May 21, 2017 1:47 am

AndersArvidsson wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 8:32 am
What about a Morgathian who views the Bukrai as an evil force corrupting the kind and caring god of death from his divine task, and using the shadow and raising the dead as blasphemy.
Wouldn't you just lose your rituals? Since morgaths stuff comes from bukrai?

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Re: Forming new orders?

#14 Post by AndersArvidsson » Mon May 22, 2017 5:36 pm

Kebron wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 1:47 am
AndersArvidsson wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 8:32 am
What about a Morgathian who views the Bukrai as an evil force corrupting the kind and caring god of death from his divine task, and using the shadow and raising the dead as blasphemy.
Wouldn't you just lose your rituals? Since morgaths stuff comes from bukrai?
Morgathian is a god and has his own stuff, on top of that he's driven mad by his possession of the Bukrai.

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Re: Forming new orders?

#15 Post by AndersArvidsson » Mon May 22, 2017 5:38 pm

zargen wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 9:51 pm
Heresy!
I know! I have vague memory of Lythian Morgathian viewing the Harnic zombie focus as a heresy! Since I don't find the reference On not sure if it's pHarn, fanon or canon.

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