Thought I'd poll the Harniacs for some good ideas about a murder mystery scenario I want to run for my group. Sorry for the EXTREMELY long post, but if you're interested in throwing down some ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Here's the pertinent details:
-PC's are: a knight on pilgrimage, an in-cognito Peleahn Shek-Pvar on a mission from Save Knor as a "condition" for a miracle, a yeoman trapper, and a Laranian Ashesa on the Telur-Vakum (the Ritual of Labor he must complete before being ordained as a priest). They're all from Chybisa, and they all serve the same lord.

-I'm using the abbey in Dead of Winter as a template, and basically stealing the layout and NPC's, as well as appropriating St Aedan (my pc's will never get anywhere near Kanday, so I'm not worried about consistency issues).

- They are going to Ashwood Abbey (my creation) in western Kaldor. It's isolated (deep in the Kath forest), and populated by a group of ascetic monks from an esoteric branch of the Order of the Spear of Shattered Sorrow. The Abbey was built on a site where a Laranian knight and a Save-Knorrian scholar were investigating and defiling an underground Agrikan temple (the temple was thought to be one of the Agrikan "888 corners of the world"), although the exisitence of the Agrikan temple is not common knowledge. The two were attacked and killed by Agrikan knights who performed the ultimate sacriledge (as far as Laranians are concerned) and burned the bodies. Several weeks later, Laranian pilgrims, on a vision from the goddess, attended the site, recovered the ashes, and built a shrine on the site. This went on to later develop into Ashwood Abbey.

-The ashes of St Aedan (the Laranian knight who died there) are on display in an urn in the Chapel, and are considered the most holy of relics. His shield is also there, in a reliquary. However, what the monks don't know is that the ashes of the Save-Knorrian are intermingled with the Saint's, as they were burned by the Agrikans together (the Scholar features not at all in Laranian religious theology, history or iconography).

-Our PC Shek Pvar has been intructed by Save Knor through a vision to go to the Abbey and retrieve the ashes of the Save Knorrian scholar (a S-K Saint called Andrusias) from the urn, and return them to the temple in Thay. How he is supposed to do this, including separating the ashes of one saint from another, is unknown (to me too...can't WAIT to see what they come up with).

-Our PC Knight knows about the Shek Pvar's mission, and because the SP prayed to Save Knorr to save the knight himself, the knight feels responsible to help him retrieve the ashes - even though it might skirt heretical territory. The knight is faithful to Larani, but not a fanatic.

-The knight is only on pilgrimage in order to avoid an assault charge against his father in Burzyn (long story, but basically he is going on holy pilgrimage instead of facing charges; if he completes the pilgrimage, the charges will be dropped).

-Our PC Shek Pvar ALSO has another purpose, vaguely known to the knight and yeoman: he has been instructed by their Chybisan lord's chamberlain to "acquire" any holy relics from the Abbey (which is known for its abundant reliquary and troves of artefacts) for use of their lord in an upcoming campaign against the local Pagaelin. The chamberlain feels that weilding an important Laranian relic of some sort (say, the shield of Saint Aedan...?) would show the local Chybisan nobility that the goddess was on this lord's side (again, long story, but it involves this lord trying to justify his personal war with the Pagaelin against King Verlid's decree that they are not to be antagonized. If he could claim that Larani herself is backing his crusade against them, how could the King condemn the action?).

-The PC Ashesa (normally an NPC, but a friend is in from out of town and will be playing the character while he's here) looks up to the knight as a local hero, and his Labor of Virtue is all about accompanying the knight on his long, dangerous pilgrimage into Kaldor. He knows nothing about acquiring either the ashes of St Andrusias for Save-Knorr, or the acquiring of said Laranian relics for the chamberlain.

-The PC yeoman is a trusted ally and friend of both the knight and the SP; he will go along with pretty much anything they decide

Ok, that's the setup for the party. Whew. Now, onto the mystery at Ashwood Abbey.

Here's what I have so far. What I want is a very "Name of the Rose" feeling from this. I have changed most of the females from "Dead of Winter" into males, just to preserve to feel of that film/book.

When the pc's get there, they notice that the local serfs (of which there are very few) are very skittish. They discover in the abbey's stables a mule, whose brand is of the Guild of Arcane Lore.

Here's what's happened:
-Some days ago, a member of the Guild of Arcane Lore, and priest of Save Knorr (Haliki Aemon Crossinger), on a Labor of Reverence, arrived at the abbey on a mission to investigate the ashes (our PC SP wasn't the only one Save Knorr gave his vision to, it seems). The Haliki very insistently spoke with the Suloran at the abbey, who was mortified at the idea of interfering with the holy remains of St Aedan (and who also privately suspected this "priest" of Save-Knorr was perhaps an agent of darker powers, sent to tempt the priests into despoiling the holy ashes). He kept his composure, though, and told the Haliki that he would speak with the abbott about it on the morrow. The Haliki was put up in the temple for the night, in the quarters of the absent Obasaran.

-That night, Suloran Vontar tells his young assistant, Ashesa Kordus, to sneak into the hospital and procure some Wylorafina plants from the herb stores. Kordus, knowing nothing of Herblore and too naiive to ask, does this - but unbeknownst to him, is observed by Miralael, the hospital's assistant physician, who doesn't interfere in time to either stop him or identify the thief.

-Kordus delivers the plants to Vontar, who skulks off to the guest house, and in the kitchen, spends most of the night preparing a strong dose of Goodheart potion (a heart stimulant that can kill in large doses). Handling the potion causes Vontar's hands to be stained blood-red. He covers them with thick black gloves.

-Next morning, Kordus (not knowing the contents of the vial he has been givien by the Suloran) secretly puts a few drops of the Goodheart into the Haliki's breakfast sweetwine. The Haliki starts to feel uncomfortable, and begs to take his leave and return to his room. This is observed by all the monks. When he returns to his quarters, the Haliki suffers a massive fatal coronary heart attack. His body is discovered some time later, with spreading red stains around his mouth (a side-effect of a Goodheart overdose).

-Later, Miralael the hospital assistant, goes to the chapel to pray for guidance. There she encounters (and surprises) the Suloran, who is praying in front of the Ashes. Miraleal tells the Suloran that she saw someone break in to the hospital last night, and she fears the Haliki's death may be connected. She is going to talk to the Abbott, but first she came here to pray, and to seek the "Mark of Aedan" - a special ritual in which a senior priest administers a pinch of the Ashes to the recipient, by smudging their forehead ("Let St Aedan's memory be both in your mind..."), and then a smudge on the tongue (".... and in your flesh").

-Vontar, desperate to stop her from voicing her suspicions to the Abbott, prays with her, kneeling in front of the urn - and while her eyes are shut tight in prayer, he pours the vial into the Urn. He then gives her the Mark of Aedan and advises her to wait until nightfall to speak to the Abbott, as he will be in deep meditation until then.

-Miralael collapses on the way back to the hospital, a red stain spreading around her lips and tongue. She is discovered, alive but semi-conscious, by Natan the swineherd, who takes her back to the hospital, where she dies a few hours later of a massive heart attack - but not before whispering her suspicions to Natan.

-Kordus, realizing he may have killed the Haliki with the potion, goes to Vontar that afternoon, weeping and guilt-ridden. His own hands are stained red from handling the liquid, and he feels that Larani has stained his hands with the blood of his victim for his grievous sin. The Suloran knows that Kordus could ruin everything, so he brings the Ashesa to the chapel to comfort him, and bless him with the Mark of Aedan... then tells him to return to his cell and pray for forgiveness.

-The monks in the Abbey begin to feel a growing unease...first the visiting Haliki, and now the physician's assistant? And both with red stains on their lips and tongues? And why was there a priest of Save-Knorr here anyway? What could it mean? The monks begin to suspect something foul is stalking them, and Vontar, at the evening service that night (where Kordus is mysteriously absent...), openly suggests that Larani has killed these obvious blasphemers. The Haliki, he tells them, came to defile the holy ashes, and Larani, hearing his blasphemy and his words, smote him down. Is not red the color and symbol of the Terrible Lady in her wrath? And the physicians assistant, he tells them, came to him that very day in the chapel, corrupted by the Haliki's blasphemy and doubting the origin of the Holy Ashes. Now she too has reaped the rewards of her heresy! The Lady is angry with our lack of faith! We must beg her forgiveness, and never again allow anyone to question, examine, or in any way doubt or defile the Holy Ashes!

-To hide the evidnece of his crimes, that night on his ritual nightwatch of the Chapel the Suloran switches the poisoned ashes in the Urn with simple wood ash. (A cloaked figure is seen by Nerovens the ostler gathering ashes from a firepit outside the stables. He thinks nothing of it, assuming it is an acolyte performing some kind of duty for the temple.) He takes the pouch of poisoned ashes into the old Agrikan temple, under the Abbey (NOTE: I have made the Morgathian ruins from "Dead of Winter" an Agrikan temple, as I said above; only the Suloran is aware of its exact location and entrance). He is seen that night (as a cloaked figure in black, struggling against the stormy night) by Oben the Brewmaster lurking around the old garden rockery, and then suddenly vanishing (of all the Abbey's residents, only the Council of Five know about the old Agrikan Temple - and only Vontar knows is secret entrance).

-The next morning, Kordus is found dead of a heart attack...only he has red stained hands as well as lips and tongue (as he had been handling the Goodheart potion). The monks are filled with fear. Someone suggests that Larani has cursed this place... another that she has abandoned it altogether. Catlin the Librarian suggests that the blood red hands of Kordus suggest the bloodied claw of the Devil (Agrik), and that the Tyrant of the Foul Chamber is making his return! This complicates things for Suloran Vontar, as all he wanted was to to protect the Holy Ashes, and now the monks are starting to believe that the Abbey's halls are being stalked by the Devil himself...

My real issue is I need to find a decent motive for further killings going on at the Abbey. I want to monks to feel that the goddess has abandoned them, or that the place has become cursed. I want the abbott to beg help from the pcs (a Laranian knight on pilgrimage is a perfect "sign" from the goddess that she has sent help). I want it to be the old Suloran who is ultimately responsible. I want him to be somehow using the ashes as the murder weapon, which of course complicates the pc's mission. But I need to have a reason for the Suloran to keep killing off members of his own monastery. In "Name of the Rose", it was because he was threatened by the young monks reading the forbidden works of Aristotle; here, I think it is because some other monks get suspicious, and things spiral out of control as the Suloran tries to cover up his crimes - by murdering those getting too close to the truth, and then convincing the monks that it is punishment from Larani. So what I need is a murder or two to happen when the pc's arrive - and probably, an attempt on their lives as well, in such a way that implicates someone other than the Suloran.

Clues/leads so far:
-Vontar's black gloves. He claims to be sufferring from arthritis, and the warmth of the gloves relieve his discomfort. Of course, they mask his blood-red hands.
-The bodies of the victims. They have all been buried in the graveyard, but if somehow they could be examined, it is possible that that remnants of Wylorafina extract will be discovered - or even Goodheart itself, if the Herblore/Alchemy rolls are passed well enough.
-The Urn. There are wood ashes in it - obvious to anyone with Survival. Why? And where are the real ashes? Who had access to the chapel? Only those priests on ritual Nightwatch, a Matakea and an Ashesa. The night the ashes were switched it was Suloran Vontar and Ashesa Raku, a 15-year old acolyte sent to the Abbey to serve as penance for a life of petty theft.
-Natan the Swineherd. What cryptic, half-delerious clues did Miralael whisper to him in her final moments?
-Nerovens the ostler. He saw a figure gathered wood ashes outside the stable.
-Oben the Brewmaster, who saw a figure vanish near the rockery during the storm.
-The normally empty Guest House, and the kitchen in which Vontar created the potion. There must be evidence of his alchemy there, as he would have had to clean it up in a hurry.

What are the holes in this little plot, and how can the PC's uncover the truth (not to mention get their hands on the ashes and separate the Laranian's from the Save-Knorrian's...?)

The first hole is simply that the Suloran has no motive for the initial murder. Why kill the Haliki when he can simply be booted out? Why would the Suloran fear that the Haliki would "tempt the priests into despoiling the holy ashes"? The fact that he eventually despoils the ashes himself contradicts the motive you set forth.

The next problem is that the perpetrator is painfully obvious, but there is no apparent way to prove his guilt. Most mystery stories suffer from this problem - just because the hero knows exactly how the crime was committed doesn't mean the evidence supports a conviction. That's why Eco ended the "Rose" with a big fire - no more proof was required. The Suloran, faced with all the evidence, simply says, "Kordus killed them both and then committed suicide." And who can prove otherwise? This can be very frustrating for the players.

My bet is that the players will figure out the means of death almost immediately. The "Mark of Aedan" is too clearly a deus ex machina for the players to miss. They'll mull around until they decide that the only NPC that is connected to all three victims and could have administered the Mark to the two is the Suloran. This won't be much of an achievement, since there are no red herrings to throw them off. But then they are stuck, as there is no smoking gun.

So, you need three things. A stronger motive. At least one red herring. And a smoking gun.

Here's one idea. The ashes were already despoiled, and only the Suloran knows it. That's because he is an Agrikan, here to restore one of the 888 cairns, which requires the exorcism of the two saints. He stole the ashes long ago, and has been painstakingly separating them himself so that he can cast the necessary exorcism. (He's almost done! I'll let you devise a process.)

For one red herring, one of the priests should be virulently anti-Save K'noran. Coincidentally, he should also be knowledgeable in herblore - perhaps he is an apostate Save K'noran. For a second red herring, one the body of the dead Haliki is a dagger with odd runes on it - something they assume is a Dezenaka knife. (It's not. It's merely a dagger, lightly enchanted for enduring sharpness.) The Haliki has callouses on his hands that suggest he's an experienced fighter, probably with a dagger. (Or maybe it's just how he holds the pestle and mortar!) And he has a number of vials and pouches with various herbal preparations in them.

The smoking gun is the real ashes, of course. Allow the party to discover them - but only after they have followed all the red herrings and have otherwise exhausted the scenario. (This is mystery-writer's trick #1. You provide the illusion of the unraveling of a mystery simply by controlling the presentation of the clues.) There needs to be some connection between the ashes and the villain - at the moment, I don't have a good idea, but it shouldn't be too hard for you to come up with one.

Good luck. Mysteries - especially atmospheric ones - are hard to pull off. I hope this helps.

Pokep has made some salient points and good suggestions. I might even go further and say don't bother with it all...the players will only want to start beating up and killing people within 20 minutes of starting Or maybe it is just my players that are amoral psychopaths!!!!!

Joking aside; I think the motive (and timing) need more explanation like Pokep said for it to be beleivable (After all the Suloran has suddenly embarked on a irrational and psychotic murdering career. I would like to know why he felt murder was the only way of stopping the Haliki, and why it was done now.)

I like Pokeps' explanation very much. However; even as an undercover Agrikan playing the Suloran he could still just have the Haliki thrown out. It would require nerve to do this..I would suggest that generally an Agrikan successfully playing a Suloran would have buckets of nerve; even if close to ending his task. Therefore I think there would need to be something extra that means urgent murder is a favourable route. I would suggest something outside of the Sulorans normal power to prevent. I would suggest something like an impending investigation/inquisiton into the Suloran (to continue the name of the Rose theme); which could even be turned against the investigators.

If the Suloran is played as straight Laranian it is harder. In the Name of the Rose the main motive of the murder is to prevent knowledge being disseminated to the majority of the monks lest it undermine their current belief system/ rules of behaviour. As such it is a very paternalistic although conservative action. One can see why the old blind Monk would not want the status quo of his life undermined by revolutionary revelations..even if it meant living a lie...or even killing. With the Suloran, being 'mortified at the idea of interfering with the remains' is a start, but does not for me have the same sort of dualistic selfless/selfish drive..I would be looking for what the Suloran has to lose personally as well as his pious indignation at the Haliki's potential act...Could his way of life be tied in with the status of the Ashes...?

Good luck all the same!

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Yeah, those are some fine points, both of you. It's funny how when you're so close to the details of the story you can miss the blantantly obvious

My campaign has an overarching theme of morality as "shades of grey". That's why I didn't want to make the villain an Agrikan (oooh! the bad guy is bad because he's baaaaad!!); although, Pokep, your solution of making the Suloran just that really does solve alot of motivational problems, that's for sure.

But you're right: the Suloran needs a motive to kill. So let's assume he's an Agrikan who's undercover. He's discovered that the Laranian temple is built over an old Agrikan holy site - one of the 888 Cairns - and has realized that the only way to re-consecrate the site to Agrik is to exorcise the Laranian Saint through some ritual using his mortal remains. He also knows that the ultimate re-consecration of the Agrikan holy site is to exorcise the saint's remains, and then burn down the Laranian temple with all in it as a glorious sacrifice to Agrik.

To that end, over the course of the past few months, he steals the ashes, moves them to the hidden underground temple, and replaces them with regular wood ashes (nobody notes the difference, even when the senior priests administer the Mark of Aedon to deserving clergy). He also begins to inconspicuously pilfer small amounts of lamp oil and other flammable substances, and hides them in the underground temple, all in preparation for the mighty conflagration to come.

However, as he sets about his task to exorcise the ashes, he discovers, much to his chagrin, through Agrikan religious rites, that the ashes are "polluted" with the remains of someone else - a Save Knorrian. He begins the long task of separating the ashes.

He is about to complete his task when the Haliki shows up, with an official request from a high-standing member of the Save-Knorrian church in Thay requesting the Council of Ashwood to allow the Haliki access to the holy ashes, for there is reason to believe that a Save-Knorrian Saint may have become embroiled in the story of St Aedan.

The Suloran knows that if the Abbott sees this writ, he will have to allow the Haliki access to the Urn... and when the Haliki discovers that the ashes are simply wood ashes, there will be many uncomfortable questions asked... and all when Vontar is so close to finishing! He can't simply throw the Haliki out, as such an action would simply garner the attention of more Save-Knorrians down the road, further complicating the Agrikan's mission. No, the Haliki needs to be silenced - and the Suloran knows how to make it look like natural causes. Or so he thinks. He neglects to consider, in his swiftness, that the potion will leave stains on both the victims and the handler...

Everything proceeds as per my other post. The Ashesa steals the Wylorafina from the hospital, is seen by Miralael, and the Suloran hastily prepares the Goodheart potion. The Haliki is poisoned the next morning by the Ashesa, and several hours later dies of a heart attack. The Suloran thinks that's the end of that.

But... Miralael surprises him in the chapel, and tells him of the theft, and of her intention to inform the Abbott. Vontar cannot have others asking questions, and pours the rest of the Goodheart into the urn to mix with the phony ashes. He gives her the blessing of the Mark and sends her on her way. A couple hours later, she is dead...but not before telling her suspicions to Natan the swineherd.

To add to everything, an hour after Miralael is dealt with, the young Ashesa comes to Vontar with red hands, despairing in his guilt. Vontar knows that the "assassin" will have to be removed...and "blesses" the ashesa as well, then ordering him back to his cell.

By dinner, the monks are getting scared that some evil is stalking the Abbey. Vontar blames the Haliki for wanting to defile the ashes, and Miralael for doubting their power: Larani has smote these heretics, and the ashes must never again be subjected to heathen unbelievers. Osric Nedor, a Matakea in the scriptorium and vocal critic of Save-Knorrian rites and servants, joins his voice to the Suloran's: the Save-Knorrians cannot be trusted, he says. Why, everyone knows they are in league with - nay, the very sponsors of! - those heathen sorcerers, the Shek Pvar. No dount this is some trick of the Guild of Arcane Lore, trying to deceive us! The Abbey's physician suggests that these were in fact murders - but who has motive for such killings? Just then, an acolyte reports finding the body of the ashesa in his cell - only he has red stained hands as well. The Abbott, trying to calm his flock and make an end to all of this, suggests that the Ashesa was the murderer, and Larani has clearly stained his hands with the blood of his victims before she struck him down for his sins. Vontar, after displaying a caterwauling of grief for the dead young acolyte, grudgingly agrees - clearly this young man lost his way from the Light of Larani, and was responsible for the murders. The physician points out that the ashesa had no motive, and suggests the Abbott investigate this further. (The Suloran makes note of that, now seeing the physician as the next target.) The Valaran, Arwyn, darkly suggests that the boy was possessed by Agrik, and that Larani has turned her back on this place! This causes quite a stir, as the priests begin to panic, crying out that the goddess has abandoned them. (The Suloran realizes that this is his best protection: as long as the priests believe the place is haunted by Agrik, he can go on murdering those getting too close with impunity. He adds his voice to the chorus of those calling on the Lady for divine protection, etc) Amidst the tumult, the physician tries to reason with them. He is convinced these murders are earthly in origin, not supernatural; he is drowned out before the Abbott sends them all to bed for the night.

Enter the PC's...

So, now the players arrive looking to get the ashes of St Andrusias separated from St Aedan, but they can't just ask the Abbott, "Hey, let us root through the ashes of your dead Saint. We think he's not alone in that urn!". They know that such a request would be sacreligious at best. They enter the Abbey, and there is clearly an air of fear about the place. The Abbott is tight lipped; in fact, the only one who will talk to them is the physician, who asks them to help aid in his investigation. The priests think the young ashesa was possessd by the Devil, which led him to kill the Haliki and the assistant, but the doctor believes they were all three murdered - and that the murderer is stalking the Abbey even now. He suspects Matakea Osric of some foul play with the Haliki - Osric's hatred of them is well known.

Suloran will witness this meeting, and will later kill the physician - while trying to implicate Osric as the mastermind behind it all. He will see to it that the PC's discover Osric's anti-Save-Knorrian writings, and possibly plant some of the Goodheart potion on him, or in his room? Also, it is in the Suloran's interest to foster the idea that Agrik has come to this place...and being an Agrikan priest, it is easy for him to paint Agrikan signs in blood on the temple walls, or plant his own Agrikan holy symbols on the person of someone he wants to have implicated, etc.

This is where I need some help, I think...

Anyway, I'm really just thinking this through as I write it... do you guys think this works better?

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it

One thing that leapt out at me was the use of the Ashes in the "Mark of Aedan" ritual. If a pinch of the Ashes is needed for both forehead mark and tongue smudge, then I guarantee you that all of Aedan's and Andrusias' ashes are already gone, and what remains is nothing more than some other kind of ash, probably wood ash.

In fact, looking at the orgins of the Ashes, this is likely to be the case anyway. Ashes left to weather for longer than about a week will almost certainly have disappeared, so the pilgrims that 'recovered' the Ashes almost certainly didn't. They may have thought they did, but they probably recovered the ashes of a Kath campfire instead. Given the wet nature of Hârn, the ashes of the two murden men were most likely washed into the soil within days, if not hours.

There may have been unburned remains, like teeth and bone, perhaps a scrap of metal from clothes, but these aren't exactly Ashes, are they. Doesn't mean they can't be relics, just not what you have written. The Ashes are an important component of the story, and the fact they aren't really the remains of the two saints is actually beside the point, I think. By the time the PCs get around to trying to separate the Ashes from each other and from the poisonous liquid poured into the urn, there's going to be no way to do it...

...except by mystical/magical means. Which is fine and dandy... Again, they may *think* they've separated the two, and that's all that's really important.

_________________
Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

I, like Devil, like the idea of "shades of grey". Therefore, I see no reason to make the Suloran an Agrikan priest. Why does the villian have to be Evil? Why cant he just be a greedy twit?

I am sure that even the Laranian church is full of politics. Maybe the Suloran gained his position with the help of a well timed "donation" to the right persons favorite cause and now he is bust. Maybe the Suloran is hoping for a promotion out of this backwater little monastary. In either case, he has long ago stolen the ashes and sold them to gain some funds. Now, if he can just hold on for another month or two, he will be out of here and back to Tashal where he can administer to the "wayward women" of Tashal. Then, just when things are going well, along comes this Haliki wanting to examine the Ashes! Crapppppp!

Everything else plays out. My point, the Suloran does not have to be "evil" to be bad, he just has to be bad. Also, he does not have to be super bad or have some great reason for being bad, he just has to be bad. The Suloran does not need a great motive to start killing, he just needs a motive. After all, sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar.

One of the Abbey Priests or acolytes or servants (often invisible) can be a recently turned "Crazy" murdering sociopath.

Perhaps he was bitten and cursed by a Aulamth or a Dhirik walking in the woods.

Perhaps he had a brief encounter with the Gray Mage Dyalne Dulye same effect perhaps even with a strong mastery level psionic talent or two as one of her agents. She can have specific targets to achieve her personal agenda but he is just a tool so it does not have to make sense from his stand point.

Perhaps he had or continues to have contact with an evil artifact like in Field of Daisies.

Perhaps someone is recent victim of possession by a ghost or other entity.

Excuse me? Who is applying stereotypes here? Why do you read "Agrikan" and assume "evil"? The Suloran has a nice non-violent plan for restoring a holy place. For all we have been told, this guy may be the pacifist in the group from Tharda. His co-religionists were all set to massacre everyone in a mass raid, but he said, "Just give me a little time and I'll take care of it." Then, when the Haliki shows up he realizes, "If they catch me, they will kill me." From that point on, he has no choice. If you like shades of gray, then you should love the Agrikan idea.

Finish it off by letting the players find the Suloran's diary, where they learn about the wife and kids he left behind in Coranan, how he volunteered for the mission to prevent a massacre, how he feared discovery each and every day, how he agonized about the murder but realized that the alternative was death for everyone. And, of course, make sure that the party realizes that now that he's dead, the Agrikans will come in force to wipe Ashwood off the map.

Meanwhile, your alternative is about as stereotypical as they come. A lascivious, corrupt priest? Isn't that the default in most campaigns?

Indeed, it can be depressing when reading the news at the petty and trivial things people kill for. I think I will retract my statement that "I think the motive (and timing) need more explanation like Pokep said for it to be believable"...any seemingly trivial or bizarre motive would be 'believable' when compared to the dreary panoply of venal Human motivations. Perhaps I now think that "..the motive and timing need more explanation for them to appear rational.." which kind of says nothing..murderers 'aint always rational. It might suit the game if the Killer is rational or not rational....if he is rational then he will likely appear calculating and old skool evil; if he is not he will likely appear erratic and new skool sociopath evil...all is good..or not as the case may be

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Isn't there a terrible irony here? In order to avoid an in-game stereotype (Agrik==Evil) that isn't even inherent in the story we are willing to substitute a real-world stereotype (Crazy==Violent) that is truly harmful in our society? It's a stereotype fed by movies and sensationalist news gathering, and it makes it all that much harder for the mentally ill to function in our society.

Shades of meta-gray, if you will.

My apologies for advancing yet another stereotype. Pokep is correct, I pushed a stereotype myself by mistake. I guess this comes from staying up tool late!

My point was simple, the villian only has to be the villian for his own reasons. The reason does not have to be something that makes sense to anyone else, be reasonable or even grand. Maybe the Suloran just over reacted to the presence of the Haliki and overestimated the threat to himself. Now that he is in for a penny, in for a pound.

My own villians usually have more down to earth motivations, even when part of larger story or plot. After all, evil people do not usually consider themselve evil.

This is what I was trying to get at with the first version. I quite like the idea of a Laranian "falling from grace" due to his own over-zealousness, and that idea is a centerpiece for the themes of my current campaign.

That said, now that I am re-thinking the Suloran as an Agrikan as per pokep's idea, I have to consider another element, quite divorced from my campaign themes: my players are not at all familiar with Harn outside of their experiences with me running it (we've been playing regularly for about a year now). They have heard of Agrik, but have never encountered any of his representatives. While the thought of making the Agrikan non-violent is a pretty cool one, and one that would nicely throw their morality-meters way off kilter, I kind of feel that the first time they encounter an AGRIKAN PRIEST mwwoooo ah ah ahhh!!! it should be something close to how they are depicted in Harnworld (ie, anti-Laranian, murderous pyromaniacs ). After all, the power of comparing a "true" Agrikan from a non-violent one loses its teeth if the players have never experienced an "evil" Agrikan (and I mean players, not characters... my players are discovering Harn through my interpretation alone, as they have never read any source material. That suits me just fine!).

But with all the posts here, I seem to be flip-flopping. I still think my original motive for the Suloran can work - that he reacts hastily and over-zealously, and goes way too far - and remember, that this is all back-story; all the players know is 1) "We need to somehow get those goddamn ashes", and 2) "there have been strange murders at the abbey, and the Abbott/Physician/Insert-NPC-here wants us to help solve them". They won't question the motives of a priest who murdered several people in a desperate bid to misguidedly "protect" the symbol of his faith - they'll simply accept that he was a zealot who lost control, and he has to be stopped. The fact that this zealot winds up corrupting the very thing he seeks to protect (ie poisoning the ashes) is the kind of beautiful irony that has pervaded the campaign so far, and one that my players will appreciate.

In any event, now I'm torn... to Agrik, or not to Agrik...that is the question...

Let's for the moment assume that the Suloran is a good Laranian whose advanced age and old-skool zealotry caused him to commit a string of murders in a righteous haze. So, now to the meat of solving the mystery: what kind of clues can the pc's find? To quote pokep, what are three solid red herrings, and what is the "smoking gun" (at this point it is likely the ashes themselves, but what pointers to the pc's find)?

Just trying to hash out the nitty gritty details of the investigation. Feel free to throw your ideas around and see what sticks.

I had similar thoughts. But I can also provide a solution: The urn originally contained the unburned remains of both man plus ashes they found. The ritual consumed quantities of the ash (not of the coarser remains). Some day, a priest filled the almost empty urn with some ordinary ashes. He learned that the miraculous properties somehow transfers from the still existing unburned parts to the ashes, as long as they are stored together in the urn for some time (so the ash is some kind of contact relic). This makes separating the remains of the two somehow easier of cause.

_________________
Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

Very interesting. I was going to go with, "the ashes are divinely preserved, and were at the time of death...one of the miraculous properties of the ashes is that they never run out".

But if it is in fact the coarser remains mixed with the ashes that are considered sacred, then those coarser remains (the teeth, jawbone, fingerbones, what have you) can be more easily identified and separated (I use a version of the Ars Magica magic system in my pHarn; it would take a relatively simple Intellego Corpus spontaneous spell to determine which remains belonged to Aedan, and which to Andrusias). Perhaps the teeth etc are buried so far down in the urn, that the clergy have forgotten about their existence (ie for the past 100 years they have been taught that it is the ashes that are holy, and every year there is a ritual "filling" of the urn with ashes taken from the original site of the Saints' battle (ie the remains of the mausoleum over the underground Agrikan temple); even the clergy do not know the truth. This also provide a handy way for the pcs to avoid getting poisoned by the corrupted ashes and retrieve Andrusias: they discover the bones at the bottom, determine that they are in fact the truly sacred bits, and discard the poisoned ashes, take with them the bones of the Save Knorrian, return the Laranian's bones to the urn, re-fill the urn with wood ash, and presto bango: Saint in a Bucket.

To make up a motivation for the Suloran to murder:

It is quite usual to pass on parts of relics to other institutions, e.g. to present an important guest or sponsor (like the king) with a true relic.
Also, relics are a valuable commodity. If an abbey or city was in need of money, they may sell some relics. Or, more interesting, deposit it with a moneylender as security for a loan.
Perhaps the Suloran needed to raise some money quickly and secretly removed some of the relics. Maybe he wanted to help his family/friends and wanted all this to go unnoticed. Perhaps he fell behind with some rate and needed to provide extra securities?
He may also have sold some of them and now must fear that his misappropriation becomes known. When this becomes know to the clergy, it will probably (at least) end his church career.

Perhaps the Save K'norian priest already learned more than what was obvious. Perhaps the Suloran heard the priest is/was sent by a Savoryan Shek P'var who knows about his misdoings? Or the Suloran knew of the true nature of the intermixed mortal remains, sorted them and passed on only the "worthless" Save K'Norian parts to the moneylender, who tried to sell them as the true laranian relics, from what that the Save K'Norians got notice? How would the moneylender react if he finds out the truth? Perhaps the Suloran was already blackmailed about this?

Something like this would fit your "shades of grey" well...

_________________
Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

Why not give the Suloran a slightly more mundane motive - fear. It could be that the Suloran, running from his own terrible past, came to this out-of-the-way abbey to devote his life to penance for his previous crimes. Perhaps he recognized the Haliki from his past (perhaps the man was an "expert witness" in the investigation into the Suloran's former crime) and feared that he would be recognized in return.

Perhaps paranoia took over at that point. The Haliki's request to examine the ashes was clearly just a stalling tactic until the abbot returned and the Haliki could make his case against the Suloran. The fact that the Haliki is showing no sign of recognizing the Suloran is only proof that he's playing coy, trying to lure the Suloran into complacency, into betraying himself. Surely steps must be taken before everything the Suloran has built here crumbles, before all his good works are undone.

Mmmmm, paranoia.

The irony of course is that the Haliki didn't even recognize the Suloran because it has been decades since they last met and the context is completely different. Hell, the Haliki may have inadvertantly helped convict someone else of the Suloran's crime and not even think to make such a connection.

Keep this in mind: The hard part isn't coming up with a motive. The hard part is coming up with a motive that the players can deduce from in-game clues. Whether he's an Agrikan, a lecher, or on the run from the law, there has to be a trail of clues that would lead the players to the discovery.

Agreed 100%

Yup, that pretty much goes without saying. Hence, this thread. I had asked up thread for some other ideas to facilitate just that: more things that the pcs could find to lead them to solving the mystery.

I've assembled a list of about eight or so major clue/leads that the pcs can stumble across over the course of their investigation (based on my revised idea in which the Suloran is in fact an Agrikan). Any others would be welcome!

Clues: Only present a picture of the Suloran and the players will investigate him like an Al Qaaida suspect in a hardware store

Oh...you meant in game clues.....

People watching whilst not entirely reliable is almost entirely trusted by some people who think they "can spot a wrong 'un a mile off". It also can throw up Red Herrings when someone behaves strongly to a stimuli for different reasons than being guilty. I personally like the 'allegory trap' like in Hamlet..."The plays the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King" etc. Perhaps a Sermon after the murders that is an allegory of the events unfolding (accidentally or on purpose) would smoke out the murderer and/or others for entirely different reasons.....

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Laranians abhor cremation so the Saint could have been a Martyr burned alive/cremated by Agrikians who were aware of that but he still took his secret to the grave which turned the tide of a well known major historical battle emphasizing the chivalric idea of duty suffering terribly before taking a secret to the grave, over personal glory.

Instead of the Ashes of a Save Knor Saint being mixed in with the Ashes of a Laranian Saint perhaps one of the clues to where the Ashes of a Save Knor Saint are Hidden inside the sacred urn (common custom of the Save Knorians treasure where there remains were finally located).

[Intrigue shortly after the Laranian Saint's Ashes were recovered and before they were ritually interred and sealed "unknowingly" (soldered or spot welded) in the metal urn*] by another minor Laranian or Peonian "Living" Saint of the day due to the actions of an adherent of the Save Knorian Saint.

*Most relic guardians and custodians are not going to allow someone to break open a sealed holy sacred relic to inspect the contents no matter what the story particularly if the story teller is of a differing faith or faiths. [Even if one of the PCs claims he had a True Vision from one of the Saints].

For a double twist some Ashes of an Agrikian Saint are mixed in the Laranian urn which reduces their power making them effectively only as powerful as his shield relic something he commonly carried with him bearing his coat of arms.

Because of The Concordant The Laranian Saint will be able to become more active in the mortal realm and his relic more powerful once the Agrikian Saint's remains are removed since their proximity minimizes the power of his.

Due to the divine nature of the events surrounding his remains he may also call upon the assistance of the Peonian and the Save Knor Saint's if his (Save Knor) remains are recovered; in circumstances he or they individually would normally not be allowed to take action because of The Concordant due to the triple sphere divine alliance.

Individual PCs gain the favor of one or more Saintly Patrons and receives a GM Get Out of Jail Free Miracle in the future. Possibly one or more gains a benevolent Patron Saint who occasionally intercedes in the future campaign.