I'm not sure myself at this point. I know that the first year will be a raid, with a possibly semi-permanent camp erected somewhere outside of Kaldor near one of the rivers. In the second year, there may be more notion of conquest if the Kaldorans prove soft in year one.


This is a really interesting angle. I hadn't put Bjan in place as Lerden already led the successful attack and seizure of Lorkin last year. But his motives - or much about him at all - have not yet come to light for the campaign. I still have a lot of flexibility here, and I'm very much warming to the idea that this is part of a plan to get Bjan out of the way. Depending, that could either be allowing him to carve out a fief in Kaldor (far from the sea and thus no threat ever to Harbaal) or simply Lerden's way of getting rid of a rival.

Hmmm.

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The Melderyn Campaign

IMC, Kaldor thinks about three types of war:

1 - Barbarians. This is skirmish and keep at bay warfare. It's more in the line of the border patrol than the army.

2 - Chybisa. A war of conquest that many want, especially the Firiths. Widely perceived as a step above a tournament in both difficulty and fun.

3 - Tharda. A defensive war. IMC, a combined entity of Rethem, Kanday, and the Republic. Tough, battle-hardened, and have already defeated Kaldor on the battlefield seven or eight years ago. A war no one in Kaldor really wants, one they are trying to avoid, but one that they know would be for survival.

They are absolutely not thinking about a viking invasion from the north, so preparedness for such a conflict is low. I would expect chaos in the beginning, but barring something insane happening like the death of the king, I imagine Kaldor would rally and be much tougher the second time around.

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The Melderyn Campaign

I gota say Rothesay your posts sure do always provoke a lot of discussion. Keep posting, please.

Anborn

I hope so. For my part, I find it invaluable as while I may have 80-90% of the storyline to my liking, the good folks here always add some solid plot points I didn't think of. I have several just from this discussion alone.

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The Melderyn Campaign

I have been studying the maps, including the recently released Harn map from KP.

I find a lot of rivers. I think there are two major river systems in play. One is the Anoth-Ovien and the other is the Kald-Rhu. They do not seem to intersect as near as I can tell at any point. However, there are multiple points which portaging boats a short distance between the two systems is perfectly plausible. Assuming this happens (and I have to think that no viking worth his salt is going to walk when he can float), the attack on Kaldor will ultimately end up from the Kald River. This means Baseta is the first major settlement, Setrew the second, and Olokand the third.

I'm wondering how this changes the tactics of the attacking force. Does it bypass the two keeps to press Olokand or does it take on Baseta and then the others in order. The constable of Baseta is not present, but the Harbaalers almost certainly don't know this. The Baron of Setrew is, but ...

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The Melderyn Campaign

Again, the answer to this is going to depend on what sort of force the Harbaalese are bringing. How many men does Bjan have. If he brings the sort of force that Harbaal could easily put in the field - not a major army, just a large expeditionary/raiding force of 1000 huscarles and 2000 volunteers/clansmen - then Bjan will have troops to spare. He can quite literally take on all three fortresses at once. Leave 300 or so men at each of the keeps to bottle them up and eventually take them (say 50 huscarles on foot, 50 light horse, and 200 volunteers). With the rest of the force he moves on south, takes Olokand by assault, and then garrisoning it with a force of about 400, strikes south into central Kaldor.

The raid into central Kaldor comprises approximately 2000 men. To match this (with combat effectives, not levy) will require a full feudal muster for the kingdom. Provided Bjan keeps moving and doesn't give Kaldor time to concentrate, I'm not sure there is anything that can be done to stop him. Probably the best strategy from Kaldor's perspective is to fully garrison every fortification and then assemble the largest mounted force possible to shadow and harrass him. Chelni or Hodiri mercenaries en-mass would be very useful for Kaldor here (and also useful for Bjan if he can get them).

If Bjan returns a year later, Kaldor may be better prepared, but whether or not this matters will again depend on the size of the force he can field. While Jeremy is correct that Kaldor's pool of military manpower is approximately 6000, even with warning it will struggle to put anywhere near this in the field. Feudal kingdoms simply didn't have the capacity to do this (consider: France put c20,000 troops into the field at Crecy drawn from a population of c20 to 30 million).

The crucial factor in determining whether Kaldor falls will be Harbaalese/Lythian politics. If you want Kaldor to be ravaged in year 1, but stand in year 2, then simply assume that a lack of support from Harbaal means fewer volunteers in year 2 and much fewer huscarles. If you want Kaldor to fall have Lerden turn up in year 2 with a real army to follow up on his brother's successful raid.

Cheers,
De Coucy

I suppose the availability of Chelni mercs might depend on the popularity of Sarajinianism and what Kaldor has been doing down Trobridge-way...

My natural inclination towards Harbaalers notwithstanding...
I see this going really badly for Kaldor. Assuming the Harbaalers show up and start knocking over keeps, they might be over Olokand's walls before Tashal knows anything is happening. Depending on how long Olokand takes and some dumb luck, Tashal might not know that anything is wrong until a flotilla of boats appears on the riverfront.

I think what will be key to the Harbaaler campaign/extended raid is what they do after Olokand. Clearly to maintain their momentum and keep Kaldor rocking back on its heels they need to continue their attacks. Assuming they've reconnoitered and know the local map, as it were, I imagine Gardiren, Tonot, Yeged and Bidow are the target of the main force, with a smaller force sent to create havoc and burn stuff in Kaldor's heartland.

Meanwhile, the main force has secured northern Kaldor and are sitting across multiple trade arteries. They are presumeably still an effective force and the commander is free to dispose his forces as he wishes. Depending on their degree of success, Olokand may now be their forward base and they can settle in and live off the fat of the surrounding countryside while Kaldor decides what to do. Meanwhile they can split the force 3 ways, one band always on the move while the other 2 R&R in Olokand or Gardiren (or just Olokand if they decided to burn down everything around Gardiren to deal with the bother of garrisoning it). I guess if they've got one band back at Olokand they can have 2 out "foraging" and wrecking central Kaldor

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Thou Knowest The Black and Thou Knowest the White and Thou Knowest They are One.

Don't forget rumors (anonymous Melderyni intelligence leaks) of Harbaaleese plans/vulneribilities and unusual (or even "supernatural") occurances of weather/creature/equipment-failure/leadership-confusion/fire/disease/etc problems...

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Time for a daring bunch of PCs to raid Fana and get hold of the Horn of Kergis for the King.

What about the Khuzdul? Do you think they will trade a nice cosy relationship with Kaldor for some unknown relationship with a bunch of Hairy Harbaalers?

This is a lot of troops. I'm assuming a 60' warboat can carry around 60 troops and an 80' 140. This is stripping the ships to a minimum of stores, and assuming that each man carries his own provisions. 3000 troops would require some 22 of the latter. This is including no horses. Anything larger and I'd begin to wonder about draft. I could be overestimating this issue, of course.

However, I agree that it would be tactically sound to attack all three to prevent their coordination.


If Bjan loots and burns/destroys Baseta and Setrew, then he only has to garrison Olokand (he will want something to fall back upon if need be). Allowing for casualties, this means a force of around 1500 for the raid. They will probably be able to loot horses rather than bring them along from Lorkin.

My general thought is the raid would travel in a large circle from Olokand through heru, Tashal, Querina, Kiban, Shebra, Fisen, Uldien, Getha, insert grab Silver Caravan here, Gardiren, Yeged, and back to Olokand. It could also reverse and go the other direction. It's probable that few if any of these major settlements would be captured, but the surrounding manors would be sacked and certainly those settlements lacking walls would be. Such a raid would no doubt take several months, living off the land, getting a bit slower as plunder accumulates. Once back in Olokand, the force regroups, and heads for the boats.


This is my plan if only for dramatic reasons. Maybe not boats, but certainly an army. Someone will no doubt manage to get through to warn, but I suspect the city will be able to do little but lock the gates.


This is certainly another option as opposed to my notion of keeping them together.


I hadn't thought about involving the tribes. Interesting idea. One wonders what their price would be - steep, I imagine.


Heh. My PCs would be more likely to retrieve the Sword of Calsten from where they stashed it and bring down the King of Kaldor.


Highly unlikely. If I were the King of Kaldor I would be sending an embassy to the Khuzan post haste to ask for their help. Especially if the Silver Caravan is seized.

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The Melderyn Campaign

If the goal is to get loot, you don't have to have your army pillage the whole kingdom, or even a lot of it. Extortion and ransoms might be less risky sources of treasure.

Sack the first couple settlements, extort tribute from a few more, ransom any important prisoners, and retreat with the cash before Kaldor musters enough force to inconvenience you.

I am starting to think that once Olokand is taken that we can start calling northern Kaldor Meslynbaal. By the time that Tashal realizes what has really happened, a number of things will have been done that can't easily be undone. Will the Harbaalers want to give up Olokand and the surrounding fat steadings? Granted they'll have alot of Tcho-Tcho's to put down but that will be good for everyone and make room for immigrants.

Also, and I guess this might depend somewhat on who is king in Tashal in your pHarn but would the King have a certain amount of pressure to recapture the seat of his clan? Merely occupying Olokand could provoke a hasty and ill-conceived attempt at recapture providing a suitably dramatic episode for some of Kaldor's key leadership to be hacked down. Chaos ensues, yay!

What the Khuzai do is up for debate. If Kaldor can't offer meaningful opposition to the Harbaalers and effectively cede Meselynshire to the Harbaalers (which may be reality once the Khuzai are in a position to assess facts on the ground), are they the team that the Khuzai want to back?

I think there is alot to be said for chaos and fog of war in this scenario. This is a total Pearl Harbor moment for Kaldor and it might be a year before what's left of Kaldor even comes to understand the extent of what happened. There's no intelligence agency preparing briefings, no imagery, no comms faster than guy on horse (assuming he managed to escape). Talk of Shek-Pvar provided recon is cool and all, but it assumes that the audience open to the sources and methods and actually believes it and also assums that some Shek-Pvar actually know that this is occuring before stuff is burning down.

Now, personally I'm not sure that it's even doable logistically to get the Harbaalers to Olokand (though I'm really rooting for them )!.

Also, what about canoes or pirogues instead of larger boats? Possibly easier to build alot of them and they would be more suited for quick portage.

This is something I've never really understood. Perhaps this is a result of my never owning or having read the Melderyn module but why? Why do these wizards care about what happens on Harn? Why do they "protect" it? And WHY?!??! for the love of Sanity do they protect these creepy Tsathogua-worshipping Jarin? Even Yig cursed his children for such abominations. It does not compute! Seriously, the whole island and environs needs to be put under responsible management. Noron will just have to get used to it.

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Thou Knowest The Black and Thou Knowest the White and Thou Knowest They are One.

I would think taking Olokand as a "given" questionable. The fortifications on Harn are far more advanced than the seige technology. As I understand there is very little chance of taking most castles on Harn by force (Lorkin being an exception).

Unless betrayed from within or completely surprised and taken with the gate still wide open protracted siege would be the most likely outcome - which for an foriegn army from overseas would be suicide.


The Shek-P'var should have little or no recognized involvement. In the past when such involvement occured there was no claim to have come from magery. A report reaching Olokand of an invading army coming down the fur road need not come from mages or Shek-P'var - but the gates still shut and prepared when they arrive.

For example:
Reading into the "Rape of Thay" incident it turns out that ample warning of the Ivinian attack was availiable. When the Ivinians arrived the town was locked up and the Ivinians were only able to raid the countryside. Further messages had been sent to Melderyni forces that should have been ready to attack the Ivinians stuck outside the city but Harden - angry at loss of revenue since Thay's rise - intentionally failed to send troops. Two years later rather than deal with "reluctant" aid to Thay a giant storm simply wiped out the invading fleet.

The information about the invading force coming to Thay wasn't a group of mages saying "we're mages and we have info you should listen to" actually the likely source of the information is never mentioned nor does history record the fact that Melderyn had the information far enough in advance not just to warn the town but to instruct nearby towns to send troops that could have arrived in time to support/defend...



You won't find "WHY" anywhere because the authors left the WHY up to the various GM's to decide. One GM may favor a "protect" theory while others GM may favor a more sinister motive... I have a favored explaination for my campaign that is closer to a multi-generational social development plan + protection of magic. The seemingly "protective" stance is simply self interest and point of view.

Either way aiding the Jarin may have nothing to do with liking the Jarin. Melderyn has clear reasons to worry about Ivinian expansion into Harn: they've been attacked repeatedly by them. It is likely that Ivinian expansion into Jara (Orbaal) was of little/no concern to Melderyn when it started and only after getting attacked did they start aiding the Jarin.

Having gotten burned once already they are very likely on the lookout for huge foriegn armies with interest in invading Harn. Once they have established a beachhead/stronghold in the region they are much harder to deal with.


On the other hand many GMs don't like the amount of power and influence Melderyn, the CoE and the Shek-P'var have according to some of the books and they are free to ignore it and/or make other decisions. According to the books though their capabilities are impressive and extensive - seemingly limited more by their desire to be unnoticed and unfeared than else. Even while the elves were overwhelmed by Atani invaders Melderyn quietly and peacefully assimilated some and were left alone by others.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

It depends a bit on the circumstances, but even strong fortifications need to be garrisoned adequately. Given time to pull in an adequate garrison, Olokand would be a formidable challenge - even for a large force. However, with only its standing garrison and a few more from the nearer manors (possibly) there aren't even going to be enough to garrison the walls adequately against an enemy in the (low) thousands.

Cheers,
De Coucy

I suspect the news of the invasion of a large army would out-run the actual march of an army.

To take a historic reference, the viking raids on costal settlements/abbies of England were often successful suprises; however, one they turned in to standing armies marching around England the anglo-saxons were well aware of their location and able to muster troops to defend burghs and field a army. Tactics of the time seem often seemed to be to threaten violence to settlements and demand payment for leaving them alone. This might well work for Harbaal (why take Okoland, if you can have a tribute of all the silver, not just from the keep, but from every tribute lord and manor, and probably the guilds, freemen & peasants too).

In 1066 Harold had the intelligence, and the time to muster and march his army, to head off a Danish invasion of the north, and not do so well with a Norman one to the south. The King of Kaldor (whoever he is) should be able to do the same.

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

The King of Kaldor IMC is Conwan. His son Brandis holds Olokand. (It's 732.)

I've been considering the two options, and I think a waterborne raid down the Kald to seize or neutralize Baseta and Setrew is the first order of business quickly followed by a siege of Olokand. Might or might not take the castle, but even so, there would be enough spare troops to raid east to try to capture the Silver Caravan (this would be on foot). A second raid would take place down the Kald to press Tashal. I'm now thinking the circuit around the kingdom is unlikely the first year.

One question is what does the knighted-just-last-summer Prince Brandis do? Hole up in Olokand I guess or be slaughtered.

The other thing is I've been looking for Bjan Elendy and I can't seem to find him (or other brothers of Lerden for that matter). Can anyone point me to where he's mentioned?

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The Melderyn Campaign

It should be pointed out that the Norman Conquest involved invaders that had a (reasonably) legitimate claim on the throne. Harold of England was compelled to meet William in battle or seem the coward. He couldn't just hole up - if he did, he probably would have lost the loyalty of the barons.

But your Conwan has no such problems. He can hole up in his keeps, let the Harbaalers exhaust themselves, and choose his moments to confront them. As previously pointed out, the state of siegecraft on Harn favors the defender. The pressure will be on Harbaal - to make the trip worthwhile, Harbaal has to plunder something major. I can't imagine the Silver Way Caravan blundering into his hands - the caravan would just hole up in Azadmere or divert itself south at the mere whisper of trouble. The only other prize capable of paying a 1000-strong army is Tashal.

For me, I go back to the "stages" idea. Take Lorkin now with a couple hundred personal troops. Build it up by offering Jarin in the region a reasonably peaceful existence, and build up the Kaldor-Lorkin-Harbaal trade. In a couple years you'll have the infrastructure built in Lorkin to support a decent army, and eventually you'll find some useful malcontents from Kaldor that can give your invasion some semblance of legitimacy.

But that assumes a patient, experienced, and foresighted Harbaaler running the show. A realistic leader probably just barrels head first, or never invades at all.

And what would that be? That the king may have pledged allegience as a young lad? Sounds like revisionist history to me. The problem in 1066 is no one really had a legitimate claim (personally I favour the Danish via Cnut).

However, my point was that something like the mustering of the Danish or Norman or Harbaal army is hard to conceal from neighbouring countries, even if they are overseas. Intelligence in the 12thC was good enough to know of an invasion and where it would be expected. Once the army was spotted, before they landed, the word would travel by fast horse to the ear of the king.

As well as 1066AD, I could also cite 55/54BC, where the ancient Britions were aware of Julius plans and had mustered a army to meet him on the beaches.

Orbaal might not have the organisation to do this, but I bet as soon as they are attacked other interested parties - Kaldor, Melderyn, Tharda etc - would be notified and they would take appropiate action. They would probably know of Harbaal's plans and if they felt threatened would start mustering before the fleet even put to sea.

YMMV

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

Well, however you want to put it. The point is that Harold couldn't hole up, or he would lose legitimacy. Conwan doesn't have that problem.



No argument from me. There's a limit to the quality of the intelligence, though, in large part because even the Harbaalers can't know for sure what the winds will be - think of the French at Harfleur in the Hundred Years War. Fate rides upon very fickle winds.

1) Travelling down the Kald from the Anoth Delta would mean passing Noron's Keep, but as a Praedeyalkyri who has run away once already, I suspect that he would either stomp any Iviniian patrols small enough for him to be sure of wiping out without a trace, or, if there are too many of the little buggers, he and his sons will decamp for parts unknown as swiftly as possible, in the hopes of once again escaping the attention of Sarajin.

2) It is not only the Hârnians who would be interested in where the Wolf of Harbaal's army is going. The Chelembians undoubtedly have spies in Harbaal, and would keep very careful watch on what is happening next door, and would probably mobilize until they were sure that the Harbaalese were going far, far, away. After all, it would surely occur to them that this "Invasion of Hârn" is merely a gimmick to allow the Harbaalese to gather an army and a fleet with which to attack Chelemby, which is much closer, and much, much richer. Further, they would undoubtedly inform the Queen of Chelemby's relatives in Emelrene, who would probably inform their friends in Melderyn. See, no wizardry required to gain information.

3) The Agrikans have some people in Ivinia, I believe that this includes the Crimson Dancer. They would be quite likely, I should imagine, to inform their superiors in Orbaal if they heard of an army on the way. Unless they have been suborned or think this is a good time to achieve independence.

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

I'm postulating any such force would travel down the Anoth to the Ovien and thence portage overland into the Kald river system. Lerden sent a delegation to Noron last year and they never returned. He took the hint and decided to avoid the unpredictable giant.


Harbaal has been in Lorkin for a year at this point, but it still could be perceived as a staging point for such a strike. Worth thinking about.


IMC, at the moment, Melderyn is quite aware. They are, however, uninvolved, and will remain so for other campaign reasons.

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The Melderyn Campaign

Bjan is the Lord High Justice of Hârbáal in TR720; he is referred to on page 8 of the "Harbaal" in the Shorkyne Regional Module.

Cheers

Jeremy

Ah, just so. Thanks Jeremy! So easy to miss a single sentence amongst the vast wealth of material.

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The Melderyn Campaign

Rothesay wrote:
This might actually impel the Iviniians to attack Noron. Quite possibly the Sarajinian priests would want this errant Praedeyalkyri dealt with, to the point of urging Lerden to turn his pillaging raid into a much more honorable religious crusade. Think of the kudos when he reaches Sarajin's hall! Also, Noron would be realize at this point that he has been brought to the attention of Sarajin and would be making his escape plans. Hey, he ran away once before.

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

Not all Hârbáalers are Sárajìnian religious fanatics... In fact, compared to Ivínians from Ivínia, they can be pretty liberal... (although, there are of course, always exceptions....)