Here's my question -

In the Shorkyne module, it strongly suggests that the King of Harbaal will not long remain inactive. Among the possibilities listed is an attack on Harn.

Now, I'd like to explore that question, and from my point of view, it should be from an attack on the Anoth Delta with a subsequent thrust to Kaldor. Let's take that as a given.

In the context of that given, what kind of forces can Harbaal muster? How many and what types of troops could get to Lorkin? How many and what type could get to Kaldor?

_________________
The Melderyn Campaign

Lorkin is practically begging for a small stealthy party to enter from the SW tower - which has but a single guard and at 13' could be reasonably scaled with a springboard or a good boost from a friend and some upper body strength.

Or if you want to send troops they could bring a ladder.

The defenders can barely get at anyone assulting that area even if they saw them coming. The attackers can use the town walls and castle to shield themselves. Once inside the attackers can take the castle and have great fun shooting from the other towers at anyone inside the walled town.

Assumably the defenders will be too dumb to march around outside town to do the same thing.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Short answer... many troops..

Longer answer... it depends

------

Hârbáal is a tributary realm. The Overking can demand reasonably high levels of military support for defensive purposes, but offensive campaigns are a different matter. In practice, each sub-kingdom would have a considerably measure of autonomy in determining the extent of support that it gave to a foreign venture. Of course, if they felt this venture was in their interest, their contribution could be considerable.

I know that you have said "assume this goes ahead", but it should be noted that Hârbáal hasn't been very successful in foreign ventures to date (2 failed invasions of Chélemby; participation in the Cape Rénda Disaster), so this could keep the number of available troops down...

Anyway... moving on:

Lédenheim is one of the more populous realm in the kingdom (72,000 out of 624,000; or 12%), so provides a good model. It has:
- standing forces of about 850. Probably a maximum of about half of these would be available for foreign ventures.
- clan-based militia forces of up to 8,000. Probably only a small proportion of this number (say 20% or 1,600) would be available for overseas ventures (some of these are already elsewhere on 'private' mercenary service).

If these figures were replicated across all of Hârbáal, then there would be approximately 3,000 standing forces, and up to say 12,000 clan-based militia forces available for foreign ventures.

Lédenheim has six vessels in the 'royal fleet' (the warboats & dragonships of the ruling clan). But there will be a number of multi-use vessels from coastal freeholds (owned by a range of clans) available should the opportunity for plunder arise. Lets say at least 20 of these might join a foreign venture from Lédenheim.

Thus there might be around 50 'military' longships across the over-kingdom of Hârbáal, and another 160 or so 'volunteer' multi-use ships might join in.

If these ships had potential crews of say 60, then combined 'navy' could transport about 12,000 men, leaving room for extra supplies, maybe some horses etc.

I doubt that the King of Hârbáal would need this many troops to take on Hârn; and in fact the logistics (food, etc) would probably make this number unmanageable.

But you do begin to see how Álagon and Palíthanè were conquered...

As for types of troops here are my rather rough *estimates* of troop types

Light Horse (LH) - 480 (Huscarls / Standing Forces)
Medium Foot (MF) - 3,120 (Huscarls / Standing Forces)
Light Foot (LF) - 6,000 (Clan Militia)
Short Bow (SB) - 2,400 (Clan Militia / Standing Forces)

Hope this helps.

Jeremy

Jeremy - you have exactly anticipated my problem. When I began to look into this, I realized that the military forces available to Harbaal were prodigious but also nearly unmanageable in a Harnic campaign.

Hence my question.

Nearly 13,000 troops might conquer the whole of Harn but how is one to feed them?

So, it comes down to what would it take to raid?

Feanor correctly notes that Lorkin is ripe for the taking. I doubt it would survive more than a few hundred huscarls, and so the real question is what would Harbaal need to hold Lorkin (a few companies?) and send a raiding expedition to Kaldor? Of course, the other problem lies in the number of underkings in Harbaal. I assume most if not all of them would want to be in on such an expedition. After all, a great deal of wealth is there for the taking.


This is a very salient point which I have hitherto ignored. I might smack my forehead on this one.

_________________
The Melderyn Campaign

What about Noron?

Moving all those troops down Noron's Way would appear to me to be difficult without some local assistance.

_________________
It's a Narrativist thing. You wouldn't understand.
Visit the Knights of Kaldor (http://www.harnmaster.us/knights/)

12,000 is the sort of army Harbaal might mobilise for a major war. If one considers the history of Chelemby it is worth noting that, even for a relatively short venture against a foe that had defeated Harbaal once before, the pendragon fielded well less than this. For a move on Harn the total numbers fielded will be well below the maximum possible. Assume that the original target is Orbaal. This sets the rough parameters for the force. It needs to be large enough to easily overawe the various clan heads of Orbaal and to easily take Lorkin (the first answer to any problem in Harnic politics is always to sack Lorkin). However, the force also needs to be small enough to not create massive supply problems.

As the pendragon of Harbaal I wouldn't go myself, but would rather look at the Harnic venture as a chance to gain a kingdom for my second son. So... send the second son accompanied by maybe 1000 huscarles - an even mix of regulars and forces from tributary clans - and maybe twice this number of volunteers. Total: 3000 men and about 40 boats.

The aim for the first summer is establish a base at Belhafen and garrison it with a couple of companies of regulars and a few settlers. Move rapidly on to the Anoth delta. Sack Lorkin to make a point - they're a nasty bunch, you need a base on the mainland, and its a useful way to put a little fear into the other Orbaalese clans. Garrison Lorkin strongly with regulars and volunteers who are interested in settling.

Spend the summer moving from settlement to settlement around the coast of Orbaal accepting tribute from the clans as you go. This pays for the volunteers and establishes your authority. If anyone is stupid enough to give you trouble sack their fortress and garrison it yourself. Arrive in Geldeheim and demand submission from Alegar. Hopefully he resists and you can replace him. If he doesn't, accept his tribute and send him back to Harbaal as a 'guest' of the Pendragon.

At the end of the summer about half of your forces go back to Harbaal. The rest are either occupying the lands you've taken (mostly volunteers), garrisoning the big fortresses (Geldeheim, Lorkin etc - mostly regulars) or 'guesting' with clans that have submitted (regulars).

Next year the pendragon sends out a call for new volunteers who arrive in Orbaal in spring ready for the next campaign. The basic model is that the territory that one conquers supports the army that invades it, and then at the end of the campaigning season the excess over what it can support long term returns to Harbaal paid off with loot, while the remainder occupy the new territories. This way Harbaal can keep in the field a large force.

As a final note - I think Kaldor is an unlikely target. As has been noted in several other threads, Rethem is the logical target after Orbaal: riven by civil war, accessible to sea-bourne raiders, on the Ivinian 'map' of the world thanks to Tormau's mercenaries, and with rich coastal cities vulnerable to a seabourne assault (Golotha, Shostim).

Cheers,
De Coucy

Another potential problem faced by anyone deciding to sack Lorkin: disease.

The Anoth Delta is well-known for its diseases. An army spending any time there (especially one lacking any established immunity to the local disease pool), is certainly going to suffer an outbreak of something unpleasant. Several of the diseases mentioned in canon are quite debilitating, too.

The challenge isn't necessarily establishing that toehold, it's keeping your force well-enough to keep going afterward.

However, Lorkin is probably still the most appealing target for an invasion force. I'd agree that the logical follow ups would be to take out the various coastal holdings in Orbaal. I doubt there'd be much interest in Kaldor, or even Leriel for that matter.

I like the disease idea.

I'm assuming the Harbaalers will bypass Noron and use boats to travel the Anoth and then down the Fur Road. Olokand is the first big target.

For my purposes, the target must be Kaldor and not Orbaal (except for the Anoth Delta area).

_________________
The Melderyn Campaign

Why would Harbaal be interested in attacking Kaldor?

Anborn

A question I share. It makes no material or strategic sense (too poor and hard to get to compared to the returns) - and Rethem is soo much more inviting... with the advantage that once you've finished with Rethem you have an excellent base for the looting... ahem - assertion of soverign rights over Kanday and Tharda.

However, if it must be Kaldor for plot reasons, here's a thought. Orbaal is a poor staging post for an invasion of Kaldor. The land is difficult - hilly and densely wooded, not to mention infested by Gargun and Taelda. An alternative (that involves the non-trivial task of bypassing Melderyn), but which is otherwise very appealing, is Chybisa. The Ulmerian provides an excellent avenue into the heartland of the realm, and once you control Chybisa you have an excellent base for the invasion of Kaldor: well fortified and controlling the most fertile land in Harn.

Again, Chybisa is on the Ivinian 'map' of the world thanks to Kjal Forsetha. Also, it is completely incapable of putting a force into the field capable of dealing with 3 or 4 thousand Harbaalese. From there one can move against Kaldor from the south. The Genin Trail goes through much easier terrain than the upper Kald valley, has no Gargun, and the Pagaelin are no real threat to a significant army. The Hodiri might be more of an issue, but control of Burzyn ensures they remain south of the Ulmerien.

Cheers,
De Coucy

I'm in agreement with other posters - Why Kaldor?

The Harbaalese are boat-y people. The vast majority of their settlements are sited on a coast, or a river within a few hexes of a coast. Military MO is a seaborne invasion followed by some quick marching around inland to secure strategic points. The boats are crucial to their mobility, logistics, and general strategies.

A lengthy march overland into Kaldor, far from access to the sea, is just not the way they do things, and I wonder how their effectiveness would suffer from being less familiar with that style of warfare.

Having said all that, Rothesay has some need for this. There must be something unique to Kaldor that makes it a target, no matter the difficulty. The main thing I come up with is that Kaldor sort of controls access to Khuzan exports. Perhaps the Pendragon has a hard-on for some dwarven steel, and also wants to prevent anybody else from getting there hands on it.

If after coming up the Anoth, intending to invade Kaldor from the north through Nuthela, would it be possible for Harbaalese to establish a small forward camp somewhere on one of the navigable rivers in the Kald watershed? Rhu, Kald, Hemurin, Lake Myen? Have a small contingent there building a few boats. When they're ready, send for the main bodies of troops waiting at Lorkin to fill them. Now, they'd be able to use their preferred tactics and do surprise raids on key settlements like Olokand, Heru, Ternua, even Tashal. March armies overland and send raiders by boat to bypass bottlenecks and hit from the other side.

Keeping such a camp secret and supplied would be the tricky bit. It's all Taelda territory, they don't like outsiders hunting on their game lands, and they might be inclined to warn the Kaldorans. If the secret gets out with enough advance notice, how easy would it be for the Kaldorans to create defensive barriers in the rivers? (spiked logs, chains, etc). And humping enough supplies down the Fur road for the camp and then the army would be a major challenge, probably not something that can be sustained for very long. The invaders would have to quickly win control of the whole Olokand region just to secure it's food resources. Time the attacks for just after harvest, before the first frost slaughter of surplus animals?

You also have to attack after the Chelebin Tourney - can't attack Olokand when it's full to bursting with hundreds of Kaldor's finest knights. OTOH, if a large enough force could surround Olokand in Mid-Larane, you'd have trapped the King and his court, and many of the earls, barons, and other nobility - most of the important leadership of Kaldor.

Why not? You guys worry about things that a king would either not know or brush off as trivia. What's a few tribesmen, or some hilly terrain? If you let that sort of thing stop you, you'll never invade anything worth invading.

To the king of Harbaal, Kaldor is just the right size to be conquered, must be just down the road from Lorkin, and since no one has ever looted it before it must be just bursting with Khuzan gold.

The idea doesn't have to be right. It just has to be plausible. There have been a lot of crazier campaigns in history - and some of them worked out. I have never read a post on this board saying that the Salt War couldn't have happened because it's too crazy. This is much more plausible than a war between Tharda and Kaldor.

As a GM, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Kaldor is the target, if that's the plot line I wanted to run.

Why not Melderyn?

As a target Melderyn is far more inviting than sailing around to the opposite side of Harn to Rethem - or overland to anywhere.

Militarily Melderyn has a tiny navy and support from Elmerene but that seems unlikely to deter a military powerhouse such as Harbaal. Or are they avoiding Melderyn because they fear Melderyn magic?

Even though Harbaal doesn't know it Melderyn may arrange difficulties for them regardless of where they target on Harn - just to try to keep them from getting a beachhead to expand from.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Because:

a) Its been tried before, just recently, and it was bad... The Cape Rénda disaster is legendary across the Ivínian world...

b) Rothesay's campaign is about Hârbáal invading Kàldôr... so that's why

Another thing worth considering is that while Hârn is weaker than Hârbáal, it is not defenseless, particularly given that Hârbáal (or any other invader) is challenged by logistics and lack of local knowledge.

My estimates of the military strengths (at 'war muster' level) of the various Hârnic realms are available here:
http://www.towerhills.me/harn/military-forces.html

So, clearly Hârbáal is capable of projecting a force greater than most Hârnic realms; but not so great that it will be a walk over - provided the respective 'targets' can assemble their forces.

Specifically, Káldôr can potentially muster around 6,000 troops through an effective 'war muster'. Of course it would need time and warning to do this, and would need to put those troops into the field effectively.

Mèlderýn can muster a larger number - around 7,100. Mèlderýn also has the advantage of being more unified, and having 'other powers' to draw upon. Even with 12,000 troops (which would be hard to effectively gather and transport), Mèlderýn is not a walk-over for Hârbáal...

Jeremy

Two cents from the cheap seats...

The overking of Harbaal is old, into his seventies. If there's a pan-Harbaaler invasion of Harn, it will almost certainly be led by an ambitious son. This might not necessarily be the presumed heir, Lêrden, king of Avstran.

I'm thinking Tralis dies, Lerden inherits and is casting about for ideas of what to do to keep his younger brother Bjan busy.

Posiably a good reason for choosing any particular target would be advice from an oracle.

If one travels a great distance at significant risk to seek such advice it would be odd to ignore an oracle's words just because the target is inconvenient or doesn't make a great deal of sense.

With good oracle advice on time and place a military campaign might even avoid Melderyni interference in their campaign vs kaldor/wherever.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Thanks - I do. I hesitate to go into the background, whys and wherefores since when I have in the past it often seems to derail the post. Suffice to say that Harbaal has been in Lorkin for a year, it is Lerden, having succeeded his dead father as Overking, and Lerden is interested in loot, not territory.


Bingo. He's after the Silver Way caravan. He would prefer to go via Gardiren, but he is concerned about tangling with Noron - he suspects the giant has something to do with Sarajin, and so is unwilling to go that route. Hence, the Anoth.


This is a really interesting idea. I had thought they would build such a camp on the Fur Road (snapping up that caravan in the process), but there are other options.


It will be in late Peonu, well before the tournament. If all goes Lerden's way, there probably won't be a tournament this year.


There is the question of what would Olokand do? Harabor is no longer there - it's Conwan's (now king) son. Also, the constable of Baseta is away in Minarsas. Still, I would expect an army to be fielded. Neph is in Gardiren - would he help or hunker down?


Although it has been Lerden to date, that doesn't mean I can't change that. Bjan might be a better choice - I need to give that some thought.

Thanks all for the great ideas - keep'em coming.

_________________
The Melderyn Campaign

The reason Rothesay is talking Kaldor is because his campaign is based in 730TR and the old Rethem is long gone and merged with Kanday and Tharda. Attacking the Kingdom of Tharda in Rothesay's game would be suicide. Unless he's starting a new game based on canon 720 info... then yeah, there are easier pickings to the east.

_________________
Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

Lêrden almost certainly has half brothers. Canon gives that Tralis had three wives, and he presumably also strayed a bit.

Ok, raiding for loot vs invading for conquest sort of makes a difference.

The Silver Way caravan, according to CGI canon, is actually several caravans that are spread throughout the summer, starting in late-spring. A lot of gold & silver ends up at Gardiren to pay for grain, but most of the choice booty goes to Tashal for the summer fair. Unless you have excellent intelligence on the itinerary of the most valuable caravan, that loot is gonna be a difficult moving target.

BTW, there's lots of other loot in Tashal, too - not sure if the Fur road caravans will have been affected by the Harbaalese at Lorkin, but at least the Salt Route & Genin Trail goods will also be at the market.

The grain destined to go up the Silver Way to Azadmere is stored somewhere over the winter, awaiting shipment. Mostly in/near Gardiren, but IMO there would also be some silos just downriver from Naniom at Uldien/Fisen/Shebra.

The King, court, most major nobility and a significant portion of Kaldor's knights will be at Olokand for the Chelebin Tourney.

The Plan: Be greedy! Wait until the caravans have hit town, then sack both Gardiren and Tashal and take it ALL!

Step 1:

Early on, send an advance team to build the boatyard camp at Lake Myen. Also, have a group of seagoing vessels ready to sail around to the Kald estuary for the escape.

Step 2:

The main army comes down the Fur road in early summer (bypassing Noron), and splits into 3 forces. One group goes to the Lake Myen camp to fill the boats. Second group goes east overland, crossing the Kald above the Rhu, across Noron's Way, crosses the Shem above Gardiren (bypassing the bridge), and gets ready to hit Gardiren from the north. The Third group advances down the Fur road towards Olokand in a feint designed to pin down all those knights & nobles at the Tourney.

Once Olokand is engaged, the First group boats down the Hemurin/Kald and takes Heru, cutting off Meselyneshire and securing boat access to the Shem. The Second group hits Gardiren, raiding the treasuries for gold, the silos for food supplies, and commandeering any river boats to help the next phase, which is marching south to join group One and sacking Tashal.

Tashal might be a problem, might not. Much of the Royal Guard is at Olokand, but the Chelmarch army is nearby and the Lady of Paladins is right there at Whyce, with a lot of their senior members there for the Ainlana Tournament & Tirannon. Also, Tashal is full of mercenary guards that have accompanied the trade caravans here and are awaiting the end of the fair to escort them home again. It has city walls, and the raiders do not have time for a siege. I guess it comes down to "how big is your army?"

Once the city has been sacked, or not, groups One & Two load the choice, portable loot onto the boats for a quick evac to Tuleme, where it can be transfered to the awaiting seagoing vessels. The army itself follows south on foot. If they have successfully pillaged enough rations, they can take the Salt Route to Geleme/Tuleme and avoid other Kaldoran forces. If not, maybe they have to pillage their way through Ternua/Kolorn/Jedes, I dunno. Back in the north, group Three disengages from Olokand and retreats up the Fur Road.

Step 3: Profit!


There's probably a ton of holes in this idea, but it was fun to think about.

Just so - thanks dude!

_________________
The Melderyn Campaign

Very true. In this, I have no firm idea as yet. I don't think Lerden does - he's probably heard of the caravan and thinks he can grab it. The dwarves are not stupid, so maybe he can, or maybe he gets one of the decoys.


Also true. But I'd rather Tashal not be taken. Kind of like the refuge amidst the hurricane.


This is a wild card for me. Lerden wants the wealth of the SIlver Caravan, but he might need this grain to feed his troops. I guess it depends on the size of the raiding force.


We're well in advance of that. At the time I envision for the attack, the King will be in Tashal along with the Earl of Balim and Serekela Edine Kynn. The Earl of Neph will be in Gardiren, Prince Brandis in Olokand, the Earl of Osel (Maldan Harabor IMC) in Qualdris, and the Earl of Vemion in Minarsas.


This would represent a major change in my current thinking (not an issue - it's why I posted). I suspect it would require a bigger Harbaaler force and would represent a bigger hit to Kaldor. Assuming Kaldor loses the battle, Lerden would have nearly free rein to rampage across the kingdom and plunder. Quite possibly even:




The hook here for me as GM is that while my PCs actually want to see Kaldor fail in this battle, they don't want it conquered. They might actually mobilize in defense of the city. Some very serious RP opportunities for me. Though, I don't think Kaldor would fall that quickly, and I don't want to see that myself. Horns, dilemma, crap!

Maybe that's year two?

_________________
The Melderyn Campaign

A setup like this would also allow the GM to control the plot from behind the scenes, if he was inclined to do so. Rothesay is interested in an invasion of Kaldor, but I don't think he has actually said whether he wants Harbaal to be successful in this venture or not. It's possible that Lerden is playing a double-game here.

Using the Lerden/Bjan construct, the GM could run the invasion as an initially successful campaign under Bjan (with Lerden's backing), but if conditions or requirements change, simply have Lerden withdraw mainland support from Bjan and let the invasion wither in hostile foreign lands. Lerden rids himself of some troubling vassals and a dangerous sibling and secures his mainland realm. The Harbaaleese invaders are slowly ground down to nothing by a combination of Kaldor's forces, Jarin resistance and barbarian raids.

PaladinSix

Militarily, what war is Kaldor's military built to fight? What war do Kaldor's knights fight in their heads? If an invasion from the north by something not a few annoying tribesmen is not on their minds, is complete chaos out of the question? Depending on how fast the Harbaalers are moving and how successful they are early on, Kaldor might not be able to put effective resistance in the field.

_________________
Thou Knowest The Black and Thou Knowest the White and Thou Knowest They are One.