Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

Discuss Other RPG Rules Systems or role playing worlds. It doesn't even have to be Hârn-related. Anything goes...d20 (D&D3E), RuneQuest, MERP, GURPS, RoleMaster, Chivalry & Sorcery...even Shadowrun.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#51 Post by WarFlail » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:49 am

You may wish to take a look at Sherwood: The Legend of Robin Hood (5e). I bought that from DriveThruRPG. It contains some very interesting low fantasy material that you could consider, particularly when working out what should be a Class.

I haven't read it thoroughly, but from a quick read this is a very good source book.


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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#52 Post by GunnarGreybeard » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:04 pm

Thanks WarFlail! First I have seen of this one and just purchased it. Now to find time to read it as well as go back through my copy of 'Adventures in Middle Earth'. I am going to have to start looking around and compiling more stuff like this for reference.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#53 Post by GunnarGreybeard » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:06 am

For those of you following along . . . has anyone done or seen an armor conversion? I don't mean just redo prices for D&D equivalent armor to make them match the 'd' exchange rate but an actual conversion of multiple armor types like different types of chain, ring, scale, etc so that there is more variety. For example, take chain, maybe 3 types available, chain mail (full chain), chain hauberk, chain byrnie, etc with the more layered, heavier loadouts triggering the 'disadvantage' to stealth skill and so on?

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#54 Post by estar » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:01 am

GunnarGreybeard wrote:For those of you following along . . . has anyone done or seen an armor conversion? I don't mean just redo prices for D&D equivalent armor to make them match the 'd' exchange rate but an actual conversion of multiple armor types like different types of chain, ring, scale, etc so that there is more variety. For example, take chain, maybe 3 types available, chain mail (full chain), chain hauberk, chain byrnie, etc with the more layered, heavier loadouts triggering the 'disadvantage' to stealth skill and so on?
I tried but it kind of pointless as AC system doesn't have enough granularity in order for it make a meaningful difference.

Here the base progression

None
Leather
Chainmail
Plate


Now add shield

None
None+Shield
Leather
Leather+Shield
Chainmail
Chainmail+Shield
Plate
Plate+Shield

Now add numbers
AC
9 - None
8 - None+Shield
7- Leather
6- Leather+Shield
5- Chainmail
4- Chainmail+Shield
3 - Plate
2- Plate+Shield

AD&D shifted the base to 10 by inserting a slot between leather+shield and chainmail and added new armor tpe

10 - None
9- None+Shield
8- Leather / Padded
7 -Leather+Shield / Padded + Shield / Studded Leather/ Ringmail
6-Studded Leather + Shield / Ringmail + Shield/ Scalemail
5-Scalemail + Shield / Chainmail
4-Chainmail+Shield / Splint/Banded mail
3-Plate/ Splint/Banded mail + Shield
2-Plate+Shield

So the base progression of armor for AD&D excluding shields is

None
Leather/Padded
Studded Leather/Ringmail
Scale
Chainmail
Banded/Splint
Plate

For D&D 3.X this was switch to AC Bonus which was added to 10 and create the target number or the to-hit roll. For 5e it not longer a bonus but a flat number. For example chainmail 16. Other factor are whether the dex bonus is added, a minimum strength, and whether stealth checks are a disadvantage. It summarized in a nice chart halfway down the page at this link

http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

For 5e what I recommend is make a set of load outs. Divide them into Light, Medium, Heavy armor catagories. Then order them in each category in terms of protection.

In general light armor allows for the full DEX bonus to be used. With a AC from 11 to 12
Medium armor only allows up to +2 Dex bonus and perhaps a disadvantage to stealth. With a AC from 12 to 15
Heavy armor has no dex bonus, a disadvantage to stealth, and likely a strength minimum. With a AC from 14 to 18.

Note it is important in D&D 5e to keep the max base armor at 18 or lower. This is because of something they designed called bounded accuracy. The to hit numbers for Monsters and characters are designed so that extermely high to-hit numbers and AC are avoided. You are not going to see something with a AC 30 in D&D 5e.

For example which of these is heavy, medium, or light? chain mail (full chain), chain hauberk, chain byrnie. My guess would be full chain and the hauberk would be heavy, and the byrnie is medium. If we keep plate as the maximum standard at 18. Then full chain I think should be 16.

However unlike plate, chain is problematic to wear as the weight not distributed so I would give full chain a higher strength minimum than plate. Let's call it STR 15. And for plate (if it ever comes up in a harn campaign), Str 13.

Hauberk doesn't weigh as much or protect as much with leather covering the exposed areas. So we will go with AC 14, STR Min: 13

So we have
Heavy
Full Chain, AC 16, STR Min: 15, Stealth at disadvantage.
Chain Hauberk, AC 14, STR Min: 13, Stealth at disadvantage.

Medium
Chain Byrnie, AC 13 (Dex mod max +2), STR Min 11: None

To summarizes

List and name all the load out.
Categorize them into heavy, medium, and light
Assign AC values, str mins, and decide whether stealth is at a disadvantage.

Hope this helps.








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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#55 Post by WarFlail » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:08 am

I haven't looked closely at estar's post above yet, but in the meantime I shall share with you the table that I set up for my own D&D 5e game:
DnD5e Harn Armour.png
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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#56 Post by WarFlail » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:13 am

Descriptions for the above table:

Quilt. Quilt armour consists of quilted layers of cloth and batting, typically in the form of a gambeson and topped with a kettle hat.

Leather. A tunic or coat of tough leather, often reinforced with additional layers. The armour includes a hood or helmet.

Coat of plates. A form of segmented torso armour consisting of metal plates riveted inside a cloth or leather coat. Unlike scale armour which has plates on the outside, a coat of plates has the plates on the inside of the foundation garment. The armour includes a helmet.

Kurbul. This armour consists of a leather coat with overlapping pieces of thick leather that has been hardened through boiling in water or oil. It may feature larger, moulded kurbul plates such as shoulder protectors and a breastplate. The suit includes a helmet.

Mail byrnie. Made of interlocking metal rings, a mail byrnie is worn between layers of clothing or leather. This armour offers modest protection to the wearer’s upper body and allows the sound of the rings rubbing against one another to be muffled by outer layers. The armour includes a helmet.

Scale hauberk. This armour consists of a coat and leggings (and perhaps a separate skirt) of leather covered with overlapping pieces of metal, much like the scales of a fish. The suit includes gauntlets and a helmet.

Ring hauberk. This armour is a leather coat with heavy rings sewn into it. The rings help reinforce the armour against blow from swords and axes. Ring armour is inferior to mail, and it’s usually worn only by those who can’t afford better armour. The armour includes a helmet.

Mail habergeon. Made of interlocking metal rings, this short mail coat includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath the mail to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. The armour includes a nasal helmet.

Mail hauberk. Made of interlocking metal rings, this mail coat with leggings (chausses) includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath the mail to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. The suit includes mail mittens at the ends of the sleeves and an open or enclosed helmet.

Mail and plate. This armour is a mail hauberk reinforced with a great helm, breastplate and shoulder protectors (ailettes), in addition to spot protection on the elbows and knees.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#57 Post by by_the_sword » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:48 am

In the standard 5e rules a shield gives a +2 bonus to AC. The Harnmaster rules and earlier editions of D&D acknowledge that there are different types of shields and they provide various protections. Might I suggest the following:
Buckler/Targe: +1 to armor class (AC)
Round Shield/Heater shield (Standard D&D 5e Shield) +2 to AC
Kite Shield/Legionnaire's Scutum +3 to AC
Pavise (a large shield with a stand that crossbowmen and archers can hide behind) +4 to AC

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#58 Post by WarFlail » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:20 pm

by_the_sword wrote:In the standard 5e rules a shield gives a +2 bonus to AC. The Harnmaster rules and earlier editions of D&D acknowledge that there are different types of shields and they provide various protections. Might I suggest the following:
Buckler/Targe: +1 to armor class (AC)
Round Shield/Heater shield (Standard D&D 5e Shield) +2 to AC
Kite Shield/Legionnaire's Scutum +3 to AC
Pavise (a large shield with a stand that crossbowmen and archers can hide behind) +4 to AC
Makes sense - what other characteristics would these shields have? Could a buckler give its AC bonus even while a weapon is wielded in both hands? Would a kite shield cause disadvantage on Stealth checks?



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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#59 Post by Spartan » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:07 pm

This is a great idea. The key is balancing what makes Hârn special and making it accessible to new people. Ideally, someone should think "Wow, Hârn has so much flavour" followed by "Wow, this is easy!" Shadow of the Demon Lord has that in spades. No reason a 5e Hârn couldn't also.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#60 Post by by_the_sword » Mon May 01, 2017 12:25 am

WarFlail wrote:
by_the_sword wrote:In the standard 5e rules a shield gives a +2 bonus to AC. The Harnmaster rules and earlier editions of D&D acknowledge that there are different types of shields and they provide various protections. Might I suggest the following:
Buckler/Targe: +1 to armor class (AC)
Round Shield/Heater shield (Standard D&D 5e Shield) +2 to AC
Kite Shield/Legionnaire's Scutum +3 to AC
Pavise (a large shield with a stand that crossbowmen and archers can hide behind) +4 to AC
Makes sense - what other characteristics would these shields have? Could a buckler give its AC bonus even while a weapon is wielded in both hands? Would a kite shield cause disadvantage on Stealth checks?



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{edited}
A buckler is a small shield that is held in the hand, so it would be hard to use it with a two-handed weapon. It might be possible to hold it in your hand while you used a two-handed weapon, but you shouldn't get a defense bonus. You might be able to have a targe or one of the larger shields on your arm while you hold a spear or pike, think Greek Hoplites and the Alexandrian Sarissa, but not a buckler. A big shield like the Kite/Scutum should incur disadvantage to stealth checks just like wearing armor would. These were big shields.

We should incorporate the weapons from the Harn books as well. Some are quite different from the ones listed in D&D 4e by the same name.

A Falchion is a one-handed, heavy bladed sword that favors the cut. It is akin to a short sword but does slashing damage.

A "Broad sword" is a one handed sword with a blade 28"-36" long that can cut or thrust. (The real name for this weapon was an "Arming Sword" or simply just "sword".)

An Estoc, is a long bladed thrusting sword, often used by horsemen. You could use the D&D4e stats for the "Rapier" and it would work just fine since it does a hefty piercing 1d8 damage.

The Keltan and Taburi would be daggers, where the Keltan has long quillons and could be used for parrying (maybe a +1 to AC when used in the off hand?) and a Taburi had a slim profile with small or no quillons. The Harnmaster rules said it was good for throwing. I am going by memory here as I don't have my books with me, so if anyone has the correct info, go ahead and correct me with any of this stuff.

There was something called a "Longknife" that the elves used. It was a thin bladed thrusting sword. Basically a rapier, but a little shorter. I don't think it should do 1d8 like the D&D 4e rapier but maybe 1d6. It would be a nice weapon for rogues to use if you wanted a swashbuckler type (don't forget to carry a buckler). It would have the "finesse" quality.

There were the Grainflail, a staff mounted flail (two-handed) used by farmers to beat the seeds out of grain. Possibly doing 1d6 damage with reach, and the War Flail which was the Grain flail with metal reinforcements on the head, that could maybe do 1d8 with reach.

A Shorkana was essentially a hand axe, but for throwing as well as fighting. It's historical analog would be the Fancesca.

Weapons like the Scimitar, or other Asiatic weapons would be rare on Harn, but might make their way to the Misty Isle from other parts of Lythia.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#61 Post by Spartan » Wed May 03, 2017 8:37 am

WarFlail wrote:[Makes sense - what other characteristics would these shields have? Could a buckler give its AC bonus even while a weapon is wielded in both hands? Would a kite shield cause disadvantage on Stealth checks?
No. Even if you could physically hold the buckler in place, weapons require the articulation of the fingers and wrist to accelerate the blow to deliver an effective strike. You can hold the weapon in the buckler hand by the blade to free the weapon hand for grabbing the opponent's weapon, however. This is detailed in I.33. :)

Large round shields are weapons in themselves, and are used to probe for openings edge-on.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#62 Post by Spartan » Wed May 03, 2017 8:43 am

The longknife seems to be analogous to a smallsword, which is highly anachronistic. Perhaps it's better imagined as a rather long rondell or dirk.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#63 Post by WarFlail » Mon May 08, 2017 4:34 pm

What do you think of this idea for shields in 5e:

Buckler: +1 AC, treat as Light Armor

Roundshield / Knight Shield: +2 AC, treat as Medium Armor

Kite Shield / Tower Shield: +3 AC, treat as Heavy Armor

Light Armor grants full Dex bonus. Medium Armor limits Dex bonus to +2. Heavy Armor does not permit a Dex bonus.

So, a character wearing Light Armor (e.g. Leather) using a Roundshield is treated as if wearing Medium Armor. If he had a +3 Dex bonus to AC, that bonus is capped at +2.

Similarly, a character in Medium Armor (e.g. Scale) using a Kite Shield is treated as if wearing Heavy Armor and therefore is not permitted to add a Dex bonus to AC.


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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#64 Post by Spartan » Thu May 11, 2017 3:01 am

That seems cool. I'd put the kite in with the round shield. IIRC, ancient shields were heavier that medieval ones. A scutum maxes out at about 10 kg. Most medieval shields were in the 5-8 lb range. Modelling shields in RPGs is fun. ☺

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ETA ~ More Classes!

#65 Post by Darkra » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:10 pm

How's the progress on this on our sourcebook coming? Any ETA, or anything you can release now? ;)
I would absolutely love to see this. Hell, I would even pay money for this!
I checked out the classes from before, I think maybe you should divide the adventurer class in to various classes. I've looked up so many classes (even custom made) for 5e that would fit in to Harn. Hunter, Knight, Barbarian, hell even farmer I have seen somewhere. Then again I suppose adventurer fits with all of those, and perhaps simplifying it is a good thing.
I don't know, just an idea.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#66 Post by GunnarGreybeard » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:03 pm

Sorry . . . real life intervened about the start of the year and the effort was placed on the back burner. Right now I have no immediate plans to start things back up.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#67 Post by GunnarGreybeard » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:34 pm

I found some of my paper notes, still looking for the rest and so I started poking around in this again. Beyond converting the HM spells to D&D 5e formatting, probably the biggest hurdle/obstacle I keep running into is how to do the Backgrounds so that I am not making 50+ of them and making unique Classes, that all combined, is NOT overwhelming but still keeps the deep Hârnic flavor of the occupation system.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#68 Post by Darkra » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:10 pm

Making a back round isn't to challenging. Pick 2 skills, a tool, and a feat.
If not wanting to create that many, perhaps give the random roll table from HM3 in occupation. Whatever they roll, give guidelines on how to create a back round. That way players and DM work together to quickly create a back round that fits with occupation.

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Re: Is it time for a D&D 5E Harn Sourcebook?

#69 Post by Brian_Smaller » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:24 am

Have you seen the Primeval Thule 5e setting?

Instead of backgrounds it uses Character Narratives that accomplish many of the same things as Backgrounds. The other thing they have done is make it possible to change Narratives - but there are rules around it so that it cannot be abused. So if you start as a Tribal Outcast and at L5 want to change to a Qudoethi Thief - you change at L5 and lose the abilities from the previous narrative. It is very much story driven if you want to go down that path.

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