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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:46 am 
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Woodward
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 am
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ogier wrote:
And what would happen to poor Bernan if the "offical" Navehan temple in Tashal found out about this. His life could become very interesting squeezed between to rival Navehan organizations. :twisted:


IMPH Bernan has been playing too many sides of the fence for too long, but doesn't know enough of what is really happening around him. There are too many wheels within wheels for him to keep track of. Bernan expects a civil war at Miginath's death and is playing a game to ensure that 1) this really happens, and 2) he is in position to make a grab at either or both nearby Earldoms (Osel and Vemion) in whole or in part. He believes himself to be the legitimate successor of the Kingdom of Arwn and Darlen.

For example:
He knows that "Augurs" control the Pagaelin, but doesn't know that they're Navehan. They're Lia Kavair, in his book.
He conspires with the Lia Kavair to buy steel weapons, and also to market his drugs in Tashal, but isn't aware of any Navehan influence. He doesn't know that the weapons he is buying "fall off the wagon" of shipments bound to the Jarin and are already paid for by the Earl of Neph.
He knows about the "Navehan cult problem" north in Vemionshire, but he thinks that is just a charade of the Lia Kavair. He doesn't realize that this is a branch of the Tashal Navehans.
He has a son who is an acknowledged bastard, to which he has turned over much of the dirty work of dealing with the Pagaelin and Lia Kavair. He knows that his son is a brute and a bully, but he doesn't know that his son is an Agrikan and is under the influence of Panaga.
He knows that the Lia Kavair want a bigger cut of his organization, but doesn't understand the lengths to which they are willing to go to get that - bringing in the Tashal Navehans.
The Tashal Navehans have brought in "outside muscle" from Lythia to investigate, but their operatives have already been turned by Panaga.
Bernan knows that Caldeth has been spying on him and has been spying in return.

The PCs know about the "arms-for-drugs" deal with the Pagaelin and know that Bernan, or maybe just his bastard (unlikely, because too much money is involved), are behind it but haven't yet figured out that the arms are likely Khuzdul-sourced.
The PCs have figured out that Bernan is skimming the proceeds from the barony that he manages.
The PCs have figured out that the drugs in Tashal are coming from Kyg.
The PCs have encountered the "Navehan muscle" from Lythia, but don't understand the Augur-Navehan connection or that there are actually 2 (or 3?) separate Navehan cults operating in this plot.
The PCs are only vaguely aware of the existence of Panaga.
The PCs suspect that the "agent of Caldeth" (the steward of the Caldeth townhouse in Tashal) whom they delivered from Tashal to Minarsas has some shady connection with Bernan, but don't know that he is a double-agent who was a linchpin of Bernan's Tashal operation.

The PCs have reported what they know to Caldeth about the arms-for-drugs and the Tashal drug sales as well as delivered "important papers" which document Bernan's shady bookkeeping. They don't know that 1) Panaga has an inside operative in Caer Minarsas, and 2) Bernan has his own inside operative in Caer Minarsas.

The gold mine is still a secret, for now.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Beadle
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Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:03 pm
Posts: 256
Location: Northern VA
Aghori wrote:
what exactly does it mean that the auerochs can tangle you on a CS with his horns?


Krazma wrote:
the Aurochs and the Bull have the note: "A CS result on Horn enables the bull to hook (grapple) an opponent."

This means (as also mentioned in the aurochs text), that they have hooked the victim with one or both horns and can (per the standard HM3 grappling rules) throw them to the ground, up to a dozen feet away.


Tangle attacks and grapple attacks are different. I think it would be extremely beneficial for animal/creature entries to operationally define rules. Aurochs do not grapple in the standard manner. For one thing, they don't have hands. Expecting a GM or a someone new to Harnmaster to apply standard grappling rules to a non-standard situation is a barrier to entry. It makes the game harder to play and adjudicate.

There was a discussion about this regarding the Lion article: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11326.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Knight
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:43 pm
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Location: Austin, Texas
Severin wrote:
Tangle attacks and grapple attacks are different. I think it would be extremely beneficial for animal/creature entries to operationally define rules. Aurochs do not grapple in the standard manner. For one thing, they don't have hands. Expecting a GM or a someone new to Harnmaster to apply standard grappling rules to a non-standard situation is a barrier to entry. It makes the game harder to play and adjudicate.

There was a discussion about this regarding the Lion article: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11326.


Indeed, the term tangle is not used in the article. I think you may be placing a bit too much emphasis on the idea that hands are required. Another example of a "grapple" attack used by an animal without hands is the constrictor (see the Snakes article).

Anyway, a "hook" occurs whenever the horns catch the victim in such a way that the bull gets to toss them. This often (but not always) accompanies the victim being gored (thus the CS result in combat). Since the bull will almost certainly win a STR contest against a human, it is a fair bet that the victim will end up getting tossed. It seems to happen a lot in bullfights and rodeo events...

It is unlikely that CGI is going to reformat all their bestiary entries. Perhaps if they decide to update/expand the basic Bestiary article (the freebie on the CGI website), some of these rules might be added there. However, as mentioned in the other thread, this would be a great topic for a fanon article. It sounds like you've given a lot of thought to animal combat; are you interested in tackling that?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:13 am 
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Beadle
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I am simply stating that having rule based examples on how creatures execute special attacks or abilities would be of great assistance to people attempting to use the bestiary articles. Even the three sentence example you provided in your post would have been helpful. I was unaware that CGI's current bestiary format precluded such examples. Is this to try to keep the articles non-system specific?

Assuming that a GM will understand how to apply a general rule, like Grapple, to a specific situation, like a bull tossing someone with their horns, is probably not safe practice. Sometimes you help reinforce understanding of the rules by applying those rules in specific examples.

Re-writing all the previously submitted articles would be a huge effort. (I think we spent about 20 hours play testing and revising the Lion article.) We were hoping that our revised Lion article might be a useful example for authors of future creature articles. Including examples that use HM3 rules at least forces the author to consider how their creature would interact with the rules system. Some bestiary entries are so vague when it comes to rules, I often wonder if they were play tested.


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