I was rereading Kanday last night when I spotted the contour anomaly on the map.

It's been mentioned before by Neil. CC2 interactive map project

Anybody know if anything's been done about it?

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

I don't know if CGI is even aware of it. IMO, it works fine to disregard the northernmost of the two 20' contours.

Yup that would work.

It does make for an odd little ridge line running alongside the Kedis Road. You could treat the Northern 20’ contour as the 30’ and ignore the Southernmost of the two 30’ contours. That would make an odd dip running from the West common towards the castle. On the whole I think I prefer the former solution.

This is the Harnquest version. The CC2 version is pretty much the same although it doesn't include the 30' contour around Caer Erynroth.

The original map from CofH didn't include the contours which is probably why they niggle a little bit. For example I like the way that the bank on which Alash stands is tree lines and steep which nicely accounts for the main harbour being where it is, nestling between the two hills on a gentle slope.

Although it does beg the question why build the Alash gate at the bottom of a steep slope with any potential attackers 20' above you?

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

It makes perfect sense if you assume that the hill just outside the walls there was the Castle for the kingdom of Aleath destroyed by the Theocracy during the siege. The gate would then be the rebuilt ruins of the old castle gate and there may be a basement or chamber left buried in the hill.

Remember the city has been rebuilt over the last 150+ years to be the gem of the west. So I would guess many old features are hidden.

seriously
A 40 foot hill with a view over the city and the ocean? It had to be fortified at some point.

It begs for an explanation does it not?

Cost limitations? (Well sire, we could run the city wall further and upwards add fortifications, but it would cost twice as much...what is that? You have a nice strong castle the other side of town? )

Traditional/'Legal' boundaries? (Well sire, that hill actually falls outside the legal limits of the city and in the fief of so and so...to fortify it would create a minor political furore and require a robust political solution...what was that..you have nice strong castle the other side of town... )

Sinister angle? (That hill is cursed sire. Rumour has it that it has the affrontery to have an underground Morgathian shrine without a Laranian edice built on top of it yet. Unheard of. We will need to pay the workers double rate and it will fall down, burn down, sink into the swamp before it stays up. What was that...you have a nice castle on the other side of town.... )

unlikely angle? (well sire...that hill wasn't there when we started work on the city wall. What was that? There are nice gallows in the square you say... )

Styrotarquan's angle? (Well sire, we could build on the old site, or you could have a brand new castle the other side of town; and we could save money by fixing up the old Gatehouse as a city gate...What was that? An Alderman? why most kind of you sire.)

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

The base of the Gate is on 20 foot contour line. If the the gate towers are over 30 foot high then someone standing on the area above the 40 foot contour would be 10 feet below the top of the tower. So If you didn't want to include the hill in the walled area just build the towers and wall high enough so they command the top of the hill by ten feet or so.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

But it does make it easy to roll burning barrels or wagons down towards them.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

as long as you remember that archers on the towers and walls have a clear shot at you as you try to move the barrels and wagons into place to roll. Also except for a possible hit on the gate the barrals and wagons are not going to do a lot of damage, stone doesn't burn very well

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

A Hill on you doorstep does make sorties...interesting.

Anyway, any historical examples of such a peculiarity? I remember Dubrovnik having a very steep mountain next to it....but not that close.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

A mountain close enought to command the walls with the weapons available is aways a problem. If the mountain is out of range no problem. Another case in point: Fort Crawford a US army post in the early nineteenth century at Prairie-Du-Chin in Wisconsin was commanded by the Mississippi river bluffs to the east but they were out of the range of artillery available at the time.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

I seem to remember a fort in upstate new york that had to be abandonded due to artillery on a local hill.

The hill is a major problem even if the archers on the gatehouse have 10' over the hill, the buildings on the hill provide easy cover, at night it would be a simple matter to move up and put down a pallisade under shield cover. And a any catapult on the hill could easily be screened behind wooden walls or wagons and command the town.

It really is a major error. It has to be some sort of oversight on the part of the Aleath defenders.

Of course, from what I understand, most town walls were not for defense but rather a matter of ensuring tax collection and stopping smuggling.
A dedicated attack could easily breach the walls since a town cannot easily defend the entire wall against ladders.

And Aleath has not had any major attacks in ages.

Ticonderoga. As I noted earlier that applies only if the weapons the attackers are using have the range to reach the fort etc.
IF you are a town thratend with attack you burn/tear down all buildings outside the wall the attackers might use for cover. As for catapults, does anyone on Harn know how to make one And yes the attackers could occupy the hill but they would still have to charge down hill to reach the base of the wall.



Escalading a wall with ladders is a very difficult and danerous opperation under the best of conditions. Just getting the ladders up against the walls is very costly to the attackers because, hollywood to the contrary, putting a long ladder 40+ foot plus require lots of man-power, just ask any fireman for details, and those placing the ladders are under fire. As for breaching the walls, as far as I can determine, there is little knowledge of seige craft on Harn so most seiges are attempts to stave the defenders out.



The last time Aleath was beseiged the city held out for two years which indicates the beseigers were unable to breach the walls or scale them.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

Three years if you're reffering to the seige by the Balshan Jihad 569-572.
As Caer Erynroth was constructed afterwards, 633-645 you could postulate that it finished off the reconstruction of the city's defences following the damage caused by the seige and the fall of the Theocracy in 588.
With no real threat to the city there's no pressing need to rectify any deficiencies in the defences caused by the reconstruction.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

Yes, no real threats since reconstruction.
I thought the walls of Aleath were 15'-20' high.
Many of the castles have catapults on tower roofs, so yes they can build them.

In general probaly yes but the builders would be stupid not to build the wall and towers facing the hill higher. As for catapults if they are on castle walls why not city tower walls. That, after all, is a game that two can play. BTW he who gets his catapult in place first can make it real hard for the other guy to get his catapult close enough to do any damage.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

If you get the fire hot enough you will crack the masonry of the wall - stone may not burn but it is still affected by heat. If you get enough flammable material at the base and set fire to it and keep it burning by adding additional fuel you will eventually crack the masonry.

How well that damaged masonry will stand up both the weight of the wall above it and any future damage it may suffer during a siege, well I am only a firefighter not and engineer

There's also an interesting passage at the very beginning of the HQ (not sure if it's in CofH as well).

That kinda gives you carte blanche to say that the walls (or fortifications/defences, they might not have been stone) of pre-agony Aleath did encompass the summit of the hill.

Anyway. I’ve been mulling over a nice little solution as to why you’d build the walls like that close to the hill. Trouble is I’ve left my notes and sketches at home. Will post them later or tomorrow.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

Here we go then.
Given the obvious defensive advantages, most right minded military engineers would have done something like this:

The fact that the walls don't do that would indicate that they don't for a reason. The original map from CofH looks like this:

The distance between the woods and the walls is much more pronounced. All of which got me thinking. What if there was a small but steep sided gully between the hill and the walls?

You might not even need to tweak the contours; they're only ever the surveyor's interpretation. But if you wanted to make the gully a more significant feature I'd redraw the contours like this:
(uh oh. Hit by the three attachment limit.)

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

I also think that there are more than military issues. When the wall was built they may have had budget or time constraints. Or it could have been planned as an addition, perhaps there were plans for a compound on the hill that have never been completed or has been long forgotten.
City plans rarely come off as intended.

Rich's solution is a good one, and also explains something not mentioned - water run-off during a spring season, or heavy rain.

+1 for this solution!

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"Honor is earned through the balance of peace and harmony, yet to the Master all eyes are open to possibilities".

Silverleaf 1981

A gully or a deliberately dug trench/moat?

Anyhoos; whilst it is an elegant and pleasing explanation, such a large feature I think would appear on maps..so it would have to of course be Revisionist to Canon..

However; I only have cities of Harn which has no contours; so I will adopt this version of Aleath!!

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Peter the Skad wrote:

Which of course no one must ever do

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

Well we can rule out this one, at least currently:

Aleath 16. The Village of Kurnil
...Kurnil is under the jurisdiction of the government of Aleath...

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..