I have just received my 'Birds' article and have been scouring through it, and I noticed the impact damages for talons of the various birds. On reading through these I've got to think there has been a mistake or printing error, a falcon has impact damage for talons at 10P? That's more impact than a lance or a pike? What has gone on here? A crow or raven's impact for talons is 6P, equivalent of an estoc or javelin. I cannot believe that these are correct, I'd place the impact from a raven's talons at 1P and no more. Could we have some clarity on this? Maybe from the writer Jonathan Davidson or Columbia Games. I've got to say that apart from this small point the article is excellent.

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.

Must be a hârnic war falcon.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

First:
Northern Eagle (Str 14; 195 lb): Beak 5p; Talon 10p.
The Basic damage for Str 14 is 4 (14/4), so a +1p for Beak and +6p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Eagle (Str 6; 7-20 lb): Beak 2p; Talon 7p.
The Basic damage for Str 6 is 2 (6/4), so a +0p for Beak and +5p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Falcon (Str 4; 6 oz-2 lb): Beak 1p; Talon 10p.
The Basic damage for Str 4 is 1 (4/4), so a +0p for Beak and +9p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Hawk (Str 4; 5 oz-3,25 lb): Beak 1p; Talon 9p.
The Basic damage for Str 4 is 1 (4/4), so a +0p for Beak and +8p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Owl (Str 5; 11 oz-5 lb): Beak 1p; Talon 5p.
The Basic damage for Str 5 is 1 (5/4), so a +0p for Beak and +4p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Dreadwalker (Str 20; 360 lb): Beak 9e; Talon 3p; Kick 7p.
The Basic damage for Str 20 is 5 (20/4), so a +4e for Beak, -2p for Talon and +2p for Kick has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Large Scavengers (Str 5; 5-29 lb): Beak 2p; Talon 8p.
The Basic damage for Str 5 is 1 (5/4), so a +1p for Beak and +7p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Small Scavengers (Str 4; 1-3 lb): Beak 1p; Talon 6p.
The Basic damage for Str 4 is 1 (4/4), so a +0p for Beak and +5p for Talon has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

Then for comparison:
Dragon (Str 48; 8.000 lb): Bite 16p; Claw 14e.
The Basic damage for Str 48 is 12 (48/4), so a +4p for Bite and +2e for Claw has been added because it is a carnivore, size, sharpness, etc.

I don't know anything birds, so this is just for comparison.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

I think Brandh Seth has a point here.

While a "Northern Eagle" at 195 lbs can be justified with a "Talon = 10p";
a Falcon at 2 lbs has the same "Talon = 10p".
With a 100 fold difference in weight, that just doesn't add up.

Indeed, the "Beak" damages look acceptable, but the "Talon" damage seems to be off.
Unless you are using different damage dice for size (which is non-canon, I believe) the Talon damages need to be looked at again.

Note:
A Dragon @ 8,000 lbs shouldn't be in the same league as any of the birds listed. Even the terrifying Dreadwalker at 360 lbs has only 5% of it's mass.

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...and I'm not dead yet...

Flying creatures have extra impact added to their Talon attack to reflect airspeed. Falcons and hawks being the fastest, seem to have the highest bonuses. Personally, I think that extra damage should be listed separately, since it only applies when they make a diving attack, but I suspect that's the reason these are so high.

Whether those are "correct" or not, I can't say. However, I'd note that if you use the Creature Size optional rule (which, albeit optional, is in the Bestiary article, thus canon), several of these birds will be using d4 for impact.

Being at work, without access to source materials, I am not going to comment on any specific values here

However, if you look at the bestiary tables for HM you will find that birds have pretty good impact values and armour values (both higher than what I would have thought is realistic). I tried to stay compatable with these (i.e. the impact for a falcon in the Birds article should be the same as a falcom in HM). Obviously, not all birds are listed in HM, and those that are not have stats that have been extrapolated from those that are listed. In addition to this, CGI also have a formular for impact damage, which for Birds includes factors for their weight and speed. Falcons are fast and hence get a high impact.

I am not going to try to justify the original stats in HM (which I had nothing to do with), or CGI's formulae. But, I will say, that as far as I know, the impacts given are correctly aligned to the rule system. If you think that these values are "wrong" then that is your call - and if you do you can modify them for your own p-Harn (I may even join you, or may be not I'd also agree with Alun, that the bonus for speed should probably only be applied when diving (if you want to use it at all) but that is not how impact of birds has been presented in the past.

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

Well that does explain the numbers ...

I think I'm with Krazma on this one. It would only take one additional line to seperate the diving vs non-diving attack values and thus remove confusion.
Of course this idea comes a few weeks late ...

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...and I'm not dead yet...

Easy to remember though, the Str/4 rule, then perhaps +1 or +2 for sharpness.
On the other hand with an impact 10 you only need one hit (if attacking a target that is appropriate) and if it misses, doesn't birds usually fly off (to try again or something).

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

The article was finished (written) in May 2009. Various ideas for impact were discussed but it was decided to keep with CGI's standard.

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

I just can't resist...
"My goodness, how time flies..."

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...and I'm not dead yet...

IMO the normal talon impact should be given (probably 1 or 2 better than the beak for small or medium birds of prey) and for dives a variable added, following the mounted combat model where depending on the mount's speed, one or two dice may be added to impact. The dice type used would be dictated by creature size as for the optional rules.

Note that +2d4 average to a +5, which seems to be the average fixed bonus assigned to the normal talon impact in that Birds article according to Fenhorn's analysis. The falcon, with its record dive speed, could deserve a +3d, and if those are d4 and normal talon impact is 2 (1 higher than beak), 3d4+2 averages 9.5, which rounds to 10.

So it seems existing game mechanisms would tend to agree with the impacts being discussed. But even if it looks feasible in game terms, a falcon trying to dive attack a metal-armoured target at 200kph will probably hurt itself badly. So much for the war-falcons.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

This makes a lot of sense to me. Talons were not designed to be armor-piercing, so clearly some GM discretion is called for.

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The Melderyn Campaign

IMO a little player discretion is called for, too. If your GM assaults you with trained ballistic armor-piercing war-falcons, then give him the bum's rush out the door and then empty his refrigerator. Harn thrives on realism, but realism only works for thinking people.
If you want to do a munchkin game with armor-piercing war-falcons, then have at it, but you might prefer to recruit some otyughs and githyanki in a D&D game.
The current system may be ok for panthers and grizzly bears but be sub-optimal for whales and pigeons, but it's important to use a defensible system during development, even if it means we must rely on GM discretion to work out the rough spots at the limit of x as it approaches infinity.

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Heroes should be uncommon. They just happen to be the PCs.

I'm curious as to whether anyone here has actually witnessed falcons going after prey? It's an interesting experience. Especially when they're screeching like banshees because they're more interested in scaring the opponent away than in killing it.

Yes I have - frequently, both at falconry events and in the wild. It is always a thrill. I understand their prey sometimes dies of shock/heart attack rather than physical injury.

Based on that, do I think a Peregrin falcon could grievously injury someone in full plate? No, not unless they hit an unprotected area. However, they are very lethal to prey of their size, and would do disproportionate damage to a unprotected human. This is where we slink back in to a discussion on how HM does/should deal with combat between beasts of widely differing size.

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

I don't imagine a falcon making the attempt against an opponent with rigid armor; they seem to have pretty good "target recognition". However, if that's what happened (perhaps the bird is under the control of an evil shaman or something), I'd probably translate the impact as blunt and apply at least half of it to the bird (hollow bones and all).

It's great to see so many replies, and thanks Jonathan Davidson for replying. Whilst I can understand a falcon, say a peregrine, causing quite formidable damage with it's talons after a stoop (dive) attack, attacks such as this are not that common even for falcons. Most hunts I have had the pleasure and fortune of witnessing, by peregrines, have been opportunist chase attacks. I do believe the stoop attack by a falcon is only regularly utilised when attacking a flock of birds from height, and also that the main damage is caused by shock of the impact due to the speed at which the prey is hit, the talons don't really kill the prey unless, of course, the prey is still alive after the falcon hits the ground. Ok that explains falcons, but no other birds attack like this, not hawks or eagles, and as for vultures and crows/ravens, they don't even attack with their talons, they are carrion feeders, their talons are used to hold a carcass, or part of, down so they can feed with their beaks, so for me the impact values for these are way too high, a crow's talons aren't even sharp so how can they impact greater then a dagger? For me this is way too unrealistic and the formula metioned above needs to be ammended so as to reflect how these birds hunt.

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.

When I was at the Leeds Armoury in 2003 there was a display of hunting birds there, one of them was a very bad tempered Owl.
I seem to remember that he was a Black Owl but my Googlfoo fails me, he may have been an Eagle Owl as it looks similar.
He was quite large. The trainer wasn't flying him as he still needed more work before he could be trusted.
Some months previously he had been out flying him in the park when the owl fixed on a man walking his boxer dog and attacked the dog. Apparently the Owl hit the dog full on and dropped it, it led to a 500 pound vet bill and a dead boxer. I think I remember him saying that the impact pressure of the talons at the end of a dive was in tons. Like getting hit with a sledge hammer.
Even the grip of the large birds is surprising, I did find this about the Great Horned Owl

Lots of pictures and discussion can be found here

I have had the dubious pleasure of being attacked by a Karearea, or New Zealand Falcon. This is a small falcon, usually living within heavy bush. I was climbing up a rocky ridge and must have been approaching its nest. Fortunately for me, I was carrying a large pack which extended over my head, since the talons ripped open the top of my heavy canvas pack! I lost my footing on the first time round, as I wasn't expecting it, but second and third passes the buffet was much like a strong gust of wind. And no screaming, just violent bird, swooping with the sun at its back, making it harder to see. Needless to say, I backtracked very quickly, and decided on a different route.

I saw footage of an eagle attacking a person that came near a nest. It was cutting gashes in the fabric and pulling out the stuffing. I wouldn't have wanted to be wearing only a shirt at that point...

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DethStruck

http://dethstruck.com

No matter how hard it hits, a raptor's talon or beak isn't going to pierce more than an inch or so- otherwise the bird would be sinking its entire leg into the flesh. You might get gashes that are fairly long, but again they won't be very deep; the bird's bones would break under the force needed to make long, deep gashes. In no way is it going to be more deadly (to a human) than, say, the bite of a medium sized dog.

Tearing up cloth (1 or 2 points armor at most for most modern materials) is entirely possible for a critter that does even 0e or some such, since they can roll a d6.