Hârn Kingdom Maps?

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Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#1 Postby Neil » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:31 pm

Padraig, I was going to simply reply to your post, but I’ve decided that this should really be a new thread. You asked:

Padriag wrote:So because they've never done it in the past is a good argument not to do so now?


AFAIK Kelestia’s Hârn Regional Map was intended to be a new version of Robin’s original Hârn Regional (or - whole island) map. As Ken said, it was never intended to include every manor on the islands of Hârn. I suspect that this level of detail on one map covering the region would raise serious issues of file size.

I’ve said elsewhere that the Asolade Hundred map is a copy of a tiny part of Robin’s original map. Robin’s original is a huge file and capable of being rendered at the same level of detail as the Asolade Hundred map. It is certainly possible to produce maps showing every manor.

In an e-mail discussion I had with Robin, about the Asolade map, he told me that the original CGI kingdom maps were created by projecting the original Hârn map onto a wall at the desired level of magnification, and tracing the image. What Robin did with the electronic map was work at the higher level of detail and then ‘zoom out’ to cover the entire island.

Kelestia certainly could produce maps at the single square, or kingdom level. I believe that Robin did some work on this himself. However, I’m also fairly certain that the whole island has not been done. In fact, I’m reasonably sure that Asolade is the only part of Kaldor mapped to this level of detail (because I asked Jeremy & Robin to do it for me). As to other parts of Hârn, I don’t know.

The map showing base physical geography exists at a level of detail that would allow Kelestia to produce detailed map squares. AFAIK this would need someone to add the settlements, minor roads, and trails. The technology allows acreages to be measured (the settlement boundaries shown on the Asolade map accurately reflect canon acreages). If Kelestia were to produce maps, IMO they would need to reflect canon acreages. This might, however, require the relocation (shuffling might be a better description) of some manors compared to the CGI map. Some folk may be unhappy about this. Although, referring (again) to Asolade: the Asolade Hundred map bears little resemblance to the details on the (four) CGI maps that cover the hundred. No-one raised this as an issue.

Finally, some people have expressed concern at the release of the Hârn map by Kelestia. It is the first (and so far only) Hârn-based item sold by Kelestia. But, in another thread, Bill Gant asked:

WarFlail wrote:Fantastic map, guys - this is excellent.

Jeremy, are there plans to make a higher resolution map of Harn that includes minor settlements as well? (Either one single giant map or in regional sectors.) That would be truly cool.


So, at least three people (Bill, Padraig & I) think that maps based on Robin’s Hârn Regional map would be a good thing. (If I’ve misunderstood you guys please let me know).

I’d like to make it clear that I do not speak for Kelestia, they will decide what to map, and what to produce, but I’m interested in what the forum thinks.
Should Kelestia produce Hârn maps?
If they do, how should they do it?
In individual map squares (like CGI), in Kingdom maps, or a combination of the two?
If the settlements don’t fit, due to acreage issues, should Kelestia shuffle settlements to make sure that the acreages as published are correct?

Personally, I’d like to see Kingdom maps rather than map squares. The digital maps would allow this. I’d also like the acreages to be correct, and if this means that the old kingdom, and the new CGI maps are altered, I’d be happy with that outcome.

Finally, please, let’s not make this a CGI vs. Kelestia issue. This is simply a question about mapping the island of Hârn.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#2 Postby Nichola » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:52 pm

Neil wrote:Should Kelestia produce Hârn maps?

As a personal preference, I'd like to see maps of places that haven't been done before - like, say, Azeryan. IMHO, Hârn itself is pretty well mapped, and I'd rather see other things like an Emela kingdom module. Anyway, just my 2d.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#3 Postby Roland de Ronceveaux » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:44 am

I agree with Nichola.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#4 Postby Aghori » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:58 am

As do I.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#5 Postby BrianSmaller » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:26 pm

How could anyone not agree with Nichola.

The KP Venarive map may help us along this path.......

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#6 Postby Balesir » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:55 pm

I would like to see maps of lots of other places, too, but I think what Neil is saying is that the map of Hârn at a much higher resolution than has so far been published already exists. If that is so then not publishing it seems crazy, to me.

The only questions for me are:

  1. How should KP publish it? - my assumption is that publishing it as a single, huge map would be impractical, so the question is 'what size bits?'
  2. Where there is a clash between the new map and the old data (that modern technology can now discern), how should it be handled?

Having said that, if someone can see an actual downside to releasing the greater detail, I'd listen to arguments ag'in' it...
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#7 Postby Nichola » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:34 pm

Balesir wrote:I would like to see maps of lots of other places, too, but I think what Neil is saying is that the map of Hârn at a much higher resolution than has so far been published already exists. If that is so then not publishing it seems crazy, to me.

Niel wrote:Kelestia certainly could produce maps at the single square, or kingdom level. I believe that Robin did some work on this himself. However, I’m also fairly certain that the whole island has not been done. In fact, I’m reasonably sure that Asolade is the only part of Kaldor mapped to this level of detail (because I asked Jeremy & Robin to do it for me). As to other parts of Hârn, I don’t know.


Balesir wrote:The only questions for me are:

  1. How should KP publish it? - my assumption is that publishing it as a single, huge map would be impractical, so the question is 'what size bits?'
  2. Where there is a clash between the new map and the old data (that modern technology can now discern), how should it be handled?


If KP decides to publish detailed Hârnic maps, I prefer kingdom maps to CGI's grid maps. One of my gripes about the grid maps is that we often get a large tract of wilderness with the settlements of interest taking up one edge of the map.

There are a lot of ways to reconcile the maps & settlements. I have noted a similar problem east of Heru in Kaldor, and have been trying to decide whether to (A) ignore it, (B) move some things around on the map or (C) change the acreage of the settlements.

I'd like to hear what people's thoughts are on the last, because even if KP doesn't create more detailed maps, it may be of use to people writing fanon.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#8 Postby Kealli » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:31 pm

Nichola wrote:If KP decides to publish detailed Hârnic maps, I prefer kingdom maps to CGI's grid maps. One of my gripes about the grid maps is that we often get a large tract of wilderness with the settlements of interest taking up one edge of the map.

There are a lot of ways to reconcile the maps & settlements. I have noted a similar problem east of Heru in Kaldor, and have been trying to decide whether to (A) ignore it, (B) move some things around on the map or (C) change the acreage of the settlements.

I'd like to hear what people's thoughts are on the last, because even if KP doesn't create more detailed maps, it may be of use to people writing fanon.


I always thought the purpose of the grid sqare mapping was to be able to lay out the entire map edge to edge on a large table. I've never actually tried this so its possible that I'm wrong. In the days before the computer came to the gaming table this was perhaps a useful thing.

I'll go out on a limb and say that I'd like the option of printing the map either way if it comes out in electronic format. I think a kingdom map looks better and is makes more sense to people. The grid maps remind me of US Government topographic maps and kingdom and local maps give me more of a feeling of a road atlas or fold out town map. Both definitely have there purpose though.

I suppose I'll have to buy the new map now to take a look at it :)

One item I'll add to the list (if its not in the map already) is I definitely would like a "player map" style that is closer to how pen and ink maps of the time would be made. Maybe even some way to compute a fudge factor to make the maps a bit off. I don't think thats possible with PDF but maybe with a dedicated application.

To answer Nichola's last question from my point of view, I would be more likely to take the locations as Cannon and adjust the acreage if the numbers were way off. If its a small error I'd likely just ignore it.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#9 Postby Feanor » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:22 am

I'd love one big map of Harn I can zoom in, and in, and in, and in on - right down to the manor level. :)
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#10 Postby Kealli » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:25 am

A bit off topic perhaps but I can't resist....

Google Maps for Harn anyone? :)

http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/200 ... -life.html

Feanor's comment may have been in jest but it is possible.

Feanor wrote:I'd love one big map of Harn I can zoom in, and in, and in, and in on - right down to the manor level. :)


[Edited to add this comment]

My mistake... they are feeding earth coordinates into SL... not devising SL maps using Google. I should have looked closer. Still I think its an interesting idea ... sorry for the segway.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#11 Postby Balesir » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:36 pm

Quoting Neil and I, Nichola wrote:
Balesir wrote:I would like to see maps of lots of other places, too, but I think what Neil is saying is that the map of Hârn at a much higher resolution than has so far been published already exists. If that is so then not publishing it seems crazy, to me.

Niel wrote:Kelestia certainly could produce maps at the single square, or kingdom level. I believe that Robin did some work on this himself. However, I’m also fairly certain that the whole island has not been done. In fact, I’m reasonably sure that Asolade is the only part of Kaldor mapped to this level of detail (because I asked Jeremy & Robin to do it for me). As to other parts of Hârn, I don’t know.

I was thinking more of these parts of Neil's post:

Neil wrote:In an e-mail discussion I had with Robin, about the Asolade map, he told me that the original CGI kingdom maps were created by projecting the original Hârn map onto a wall at the desired level of magnification, and tracing the image. What Robin did with the electronic map was work at the higher level of detail and then ‘zoom out’ to cover the entire island.

Neil wrote:The map showing base physical geography exists at a level of detail that would allow Kelestia to produce detailed map squares. AFAIK this would need someone to add the settlements, minor roads, and trails. The technology allows acreages to be measured (the settlement boundaries shown on the Asolade map accurately reflect canon acreages). If Kelestia were to produce maps, IMO they would need to reflect canon acreages. This might, however, require the relocation (shuffling might be a better description) of some manors compared to the CGI map. Some folk may be unhappy about this. Although, referring (again) to Asolade: the Asolade Hundred map bears little resemblance to the details on the (four) CGI maps that cover the hundred. No-one raised this as an issue.

I suppose, based on that, I could add a third question - "Should minor roads, trails and settlements be added to the base maps that exist?", but that sort-of comes under the second question, anyway.

Nichola wrote:If KP decides to publish detailed Hârnic maps, I prefer kingdom maps to CGI's grid maps. One of my gripes about the grid maps is that we often get a large tract of wilderness with the settlements of interest taking up one edge of the map.

Right - I think that would be my preference, also. If the capability to print single squares could be built in, too, that would be neat, I think.

Nichola also wrote:There are a lot of ways to reconcile the maps & settlements. I have noted a similar problem east of Heru in Kaldor, and have been trying to decide whether to (A) ignore it, (B) move some things around on the map or (C) change the acreage of the settlements.

I'd like to hear what people's thoughts are on the last, because even if KP doesn't create more detailed maps, it may be of use to people writing fanon.

I think this confirms my suspicion that this is a problem that will beg to be dealt with, regardless of whether KP publish maps of subsections of Hârn or not.

My own view currently is that, at the manor level, but not at higher levels, I would be happy to see settlements moved to get the acreages to fit. This would have to be "within reason" - road and trail linkages (i.e. where roads lead to from a village) should not change, and the distance to a neighbouring settlement should not do more than halve or double.

What do others think?
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#12 Postby Nichola » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:27 pm

Balesir wrote:
Nichola also wrote:There are a lot of ways to reconcile the maps & settlements. I have noted a similar problem east of Heru in Kaldor, and have been trying to decide whether to (A) ignore it, (B) move some things around on the map or (C) change the acreage of the settlements.

I'd like to hear what people's thoughts are on the last, because even if KP doesn't create more detailed maps, it may be of use to people writing fanon.

I think this confirms my suspicion that this is a problem that will beg to be dealt with, regardless of whether KP publish maps of subsections of Hârn or not.

My own view currently is that, at the manor level, but not at higher levels, I would be happy to see settlements moved to get the acreages to fit. This would have to be "within reason" - road and trail linkages (i.e. where roads lead to from a village) should not change, and the distance to a neighbouring settlement should not do more than halve or double.

What do others think?


Just as a relevant aside, my current problem is that, quite simply, there are more cleared acres than are allocated to manors. Just moving the settlements around won't solve the problem. I have a couple of potential solutions, but in the end, I need to add more forest, add acres to manors (possibly moving shire/hundred boundaries) or ignore the problem.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#13 Postby Wayfarer » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:45 pm

I like the idea of harn maps detailing settlements etc.

If Robin had these already detailed to a large degree, this may be relativley simple to achieve

although perhaps for file size issues this needs to be broken up; perhaps into geographical regions NW Harn, NE Harn etc or kingdom maps


I would like to see other regional maps in similar format to the Harn pdf.
Ivinia, Shorkyne and Trierzon might be reasonably easy (having already been detailed to some extent)

As for new regions, I would like to see places like Harbaal (that is in and around other published material) detailed before detailing other new areas.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#14 Postby Wayfarer » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:50 pm

Nichola wrote:
Just as a relevant aside, my current problem is that, quite simply, there are more cleared acres than are allocated to manors. Just moving the settlements around won't solve the problem. I have a couple of potential solutions, but in the end, I need to add more forest, add acres to manors (possibly moving shire/hundred boundaries) or ignore the problem.


I agree, it isn't ideal, the complexity and histotical accuracy are big factors in why I enjoy Harn.

I would like to have a reasonably accuarate representation of clear acres etc. But I would imagine that recalculating the accruate area of manors would be extremely complex and labour intensive. Personally I am happy to abstract a little as long as it is reasonably close (perhaps the variances of medieval surveying :) ).

Nichola, what possible solutions to you suggest? How easy would they be to implement?

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#15 Postby PK » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:58 pm

Nichola, I've been playing around with CC2/CC3 trying to make some hundred maps for my campaign (currently in Vemionshire) and I've no idea how to assess/measure proper acreage for the different manors. Can you give me some tips?

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#16 Postby Nichola » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:01 am

What I have done is to scan the CGI map, blow up the relevant portion (for me the hex containing Heru), and use that to create a CC2 map of the macro scale features. Most of the CC2 map is just tracing the scanned map features, but I had to narrow the river to prevent it from being a mile wide.

Having done that, I take the acres listed for each settlement and create a CC2 circle of the appropriate size (ask if you want the formula) and place it on the map. Once a circle is on the map for all the settlements in the area, I move them around so they are inside the appropriate hundred boundaries and have minimal overlap while including the settlement marked on the CGI map. I then draw manorial boundaries by eyeballing it, which I figure is good enough given survey techniques available to the inhabitants of Kaldor.

If you want an example, PM me an email address, and I can send you the CC2 file I did for near Heru.

For my situation, I have decided to resolve the issue by forest fire. That is, I am declaring the 'cleared' acres on the map that cannot be included in the nearby manors to be royal forest that burned down in the last couple of years.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#17 Postby viper394 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:25 pm

Nichola wrote:
Neil wrote:Should Kelestia produce Hârn maps?

As a personal preference, I'd like to see maps of places that haven't been done before - like, say, Azeryan. IMHO, Hârn itself is pretty well mapped, and I'd rather see other things like an Emela kingdom module. Anyway, just my 2d.



Every bit of info provided is usefull, But on the other hand too much info can hamstring a GMs options and is akin to violateing the no history past new years eve 719 rule. Also Isn't Harn the backwater, not Lythia? to judge by the maps curently availble everything outside of Harn is "Kelestia incognitia"
My two pence is more maps of the mainland.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#18 Postby SableFox » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:49 pm

Harn is relatively well covered in detail, regardless of whether you like the style or accuracy. Most of Lythia is not. If KP has bandwidth to create maps, then my vote would be mainland Lythia. Personally, I'd love to see Shorkyne covered to the same level of detail as the EH maps.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#19 Postby HalC » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:17 am

I was sorely disappointed when I learned that the Interactive Atlas of Kanday was to be the last of its kind, or at least, that the original motivating force behind it had chosen not to create any further material using CC2 on the topic matter.

If it were up to me, I'd like to see something done along the lines of the more popular kingdoms much as IAOK was done. Make the hundred maps showing what the boundaries are of the hundreds. Make a general close location map such that the GM can have a few manor maps and/or castle maps etc.

How many people here would love to see 3d art based on the actual topographical style maps drawn of say, Kaldor and other locations? There are art packages on the market now such as VUE that can take topographical representations and make terrain for those locations easily enough. What would need to be done is create a grey-scale map of sorts where each height represented on the map had its own color, such that you build a black and white (greyscale) map with white being the highest elevations and black being the lowest (or vice versa).

In any event, I'd rather see accurate maps made for use with Harn and to heck with whether or not some manors end up being moved some couple of miles away from where they were depicted on previous maps.


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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#20 Postby pokep » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:46 am

I just want to refute one of the "excuses" regarding the difficulty of adding detail to the maps. The bugaboo mentioned is that it's difficult to get the settlements detailed along with the canon acreages. This is simply due to an overly simple concept of what a manor looks like.

The common conception of a manor is of one big fortified house, surrounded by one village, surrounded by well-defined fields, commons, and forests. It is a nice, tidy thing, and if you are going to meet the canon acreage requirements, it's quite tricky to lay out in a map.

On Terra, it was rarely so simple. A manor may have one - or more - fortified houses. Over time, new manor houses are built and old ones not completely abandoned. There may be several centers of settlement - a few houses around the mill down by the stream, others by the manor near the hilltop, others by the road that skirts the edge of the settlement. And the field, forests, and commons were rarely a compact mass. Over time clans bought and sold land with their neighbors, leading to crazy-quilt holdings. It would not be unusual for one manor to hold a field completely within the boundaries of another manor, particularly if that field had a particular quality, such as being part of a flood meadow. In some cases a manor may include land leagues away from the manor house.

When I have blown up kingdom maps to create local maps (e.g. in my Hefiosa article), I have simply taken it exactly "as is", which produces a map that at first glance looks a little crazy. I consider that a virtue - reality is rarely nice and neat. I pay zero attention to the canon acreages, since I don't bother making the slightest effort to mark manorial boundaries. If a manor should be larger, I presume it owns some lands further away. I consider the marks on the kingdom map to indicate manor houses, but not necessarily the village, and I'll put the villages wherever I think they belong.

The bottom line is that it is much easier to "blow up" the details than some have indicated. What at first seems a difficultly is actually a virtue, as it forces a smattering of realistic messiness onto the map.

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#21 Postby SableFox » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:28 am

You also find that one settlement maybe shared by more than one manor. So you have a cluster of manor houses and a village all crammed together, and the majority of their agricultural land surrounding them. You also find, especially when building on old farmsteads, that you have the manor/settlements clustering along one geographic feature - a nice valley, a hill ridge with a view, the sole good road - such that again you have a concentration of "manors" beyond that which you'd expect.
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#22 Postby D-Man » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:50 am

I was finally able to get copies of the Ivinia, Mengelana, and Shorkyne supplements. I am absolutely in love. I have decided to get off the island. I want maps and information on Lythia proper. What's more, for me, the kingdom level modules are about as low as I want to go in terms of detail. Maybe some major settlements, too, but in truth, I want some room to make my own mark on the world I run games in. I understand that some people love having every stalk of wheat mapped out. Great. More power to you. But as for me, what I want is more regional and kingdom level materials for the rest of lythia... Hepekeria, Byria, Dalkesh, Anzeloria, Hacherdad, Karejia. Maybe even Mafan and Chogoro. Or... Hurisea and Trierzon! I want places to go. Tales of Thrilling Adventure!

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#23 Postby CatherineMcClarey » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:22 am

D-Man wrote:I was finally able to get copies of the Ivinia, Mengelana, and Shorkyne supplements. I am absolutely in love. I have decided to get off the island. I want maps and information on Lythia proper. What's more, for me, the kingdom level modules are about as low as I want to go in terms of detail. Maybe some major settlements, too, but in truth, I want some room to make my own mark on the world I run games in. I understand that some people love having every stalk of wheat mapped out. Great. More power to you. But as for me, what I want is more regional and kingdom level materials for the rest of lythia... Hepekeria, Byria, Dalkesh, Anzeloria, Hacherdad, Karejia. Maybe even Mafan and Chogoro. Or... Hurisea and Trierzon! I want places to go. Tales of Thrilling Adventure!

Totally agree with you, D-Man! :wink:

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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#24 Postby Wayfarer » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:47 pm

Neil wrote:
Should Kelestia produce Hârn maps?
If they do, how should they do it?
In individual map squares (like CGI), in Kingdom maps, or a combination of the two?
If the settlements don’t fit, due to acreage issues, should Kelestia shuffle settlements to make sure that the acreages as published are correct?



I would really like to see kelestia do kingdom maps of Harn.

I actually like the idea of Map squares, it details the fringes of kingdoms an the wilderness areas which are imho often not covered well; but I would be reasonably happy with kingdom maps and also gives a better indication of scale. Perhaps a series of linked maps like KP's Chelemby Interactive Atlas with multiple squares each covering a particular area in detail

I have no issue with adjusting the settlements to fit, realism is one of the big attractions of harn imho, things should work out.

I like the idea of pdfs will ability to turn on and off layers for things like tribal regions, mines, trade goods etc. I think this is a very useful tool for GMs


I would like to see other areas developed as well, but I think Harn itself should be done first. This may also follow on from the Venarive product that KP is working on.


Maybe it is just me, but I think detailed maps of Harn by KP would be a fitting tribute to NRC who shared his world with all of us and had a real passion for mapping.

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Fastred
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Re: Hârn Kingdom Maps?

#25 Postby Fastred » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:14 pm

CatherineMcClarey wrote:
D-Man wrote:I was finally able to get copies of the Ivinia, Mengelana, and Shorkyne supplements. I am absolutely in love. I have decided to get off the island. I want maps and information on Lythia proper. What's more, for me, the kingdom level modules are about as low as I want to go in terms of detail. Maybe some major settlements, too, but in truth, I want some room to make my own mark on the world I run games in. I understand that some people love having every stalk of wheat mapped out. Great. More power to you. But as for me, what I want is more regional and kingdom level materials for the rest of lythia... Hepekeria, Byria, Dalkesh, Anzeloria, Hacherdad, Karejia. Maybe even Mafan and Chogoro. Or... Hurisea and Trierzon! I want places to go. Tales of Thrilling Adventure!

Totally agree with you, D-Man! :wink:


We are working on this .... while it *is* taking a long time, the Venarive Module should give you a lot of what you are asking for here...


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