I have recently started GMing again and am a little rusty on some the rules and flow of combat...

if someone could peform a walk through of a simulated combat situation... severl gargun vs severl PCs and maybe even someone using a bow.... it would be greatly appreciated.

I am using HMG.

Another point, how do you handle someone with double weapons, instead of a shield and weapon? Do the rules allow them to attack more frequently?

Thanx very much in advance for the assistance...

The rules as they are - no amount of additonal attacks for using two weapons.

The only advantage is you can take either weapons Attack class and attack with that weapon, and the most effective defense class and defend with that weapon, as you would with a shield.

As most off hand weapons other than a shield do not have real good A/D mods, you will probably use the primary weapon for both attack and defense, as you won't have to pay the off hand penalty.

So there is no advantage really for most 2 wepaon combinations other than weapon/shield.

Now if you want to get into rules that make using two weapons more effective than one, you are getting into the houserules area

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

This is reasonably realistic, too; for a houserule, I might negate the off-hand penalty for defense if it's a weapon suited for off-hand defense (extra attacks are right out - only a few specific esoteric martial arts use both weapons aggressively, that's D&D fare), and let you use the higher Defense Class of your two weapons, maybe at +1. When fighting with two weapons, you're basically using your extra weapon to augment your defense, creating fewer openings; not as good as a shield, but better than nothing. It's maybe more Late Medieval/Renaissance (rapier & poniard, sword & dagger, case of rapiers, etc.), but basically no one should/would ever leave a hand empty when fighting, and there should be some advantage to using your other hand defensively.

I'm using an inititive system that isn't standard but most should be the same:





Orc3 is dead,
Orc1 is heavily injured, disarmed and prone,
Orc2 just got stabbed in the eye: Bleeding 1 E4 - 4d6 vs endurance resulting in KO.


Soro is next at 83? - assume he may start into another spell?
then at 51 orc1 gets a chance to get up and act probably to go after his weapon

starting into the next round heavily injured orc1 will face both opponents

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

From the little I have seen and spoken to others in ARMA that have tried the 2 broadsword combo as a for instance - It's far superior to a broadsword only, for example you can beat the opponents sword and strike with your other hand.

However, a shield has abilities to create openings that is not really represented in HM.

I'd probably give a +1 to the best weapons A/D class, so for instance using two broadswords gives one a A/D class of 4/3 instead of 3/2, and I would not apply any penalties.

Of course, I'd also probably say using a shiled gives to a +1 AC on your weapons.

And really, maybe more appropriate than a +1 to A/D is a +5 mod to both. The AC of a weapon has much to do with length - and if using optional rules that penalize longer weapons in close, a +5 mod reflects things better.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Absolutely - you should never have an empty hand, and having any weapon in your off hand will give you an advantage; you're not necessarily attacking twice as often, but you are going to get different opportunities and angles, be able to essentially fight in double time (parry then counter). And a shield is always going to better, and yes, a shield's advantages are more complex than Hârn fairly simplistic (as far as combat actions/maneuvers go) system can really represent.

Well, as you are apparently A TROS fan, that works a bit better, though even TROS seems to focus too much on the defensive capabilites of a shield as well.

I don't like the representation of the shield strictly as armour for body attacks in TROS - I'd change it to Somethig different, maybe even a + on the TN for blocking strikes aimed at the body - even with a TN of 2, it would still at least require CP.

A shield is close to armour, but not quite. If the shield user is entirely passive, angles can easily be sued to defeat the shield.

However, even in TROS, adding a few CP to combat pool or lowering the TN of the primary weapon might be ways to reflect the abiltis of the shield.

One thing that almost any combat system lends itself to - and this goes for TROS and Harn - the "Best Weapon, Best aspect" mini-max thought.

I've played with various incarnations of thus houserule. On a TA, you roll a D6 to determine what you may strike with -
1- Primary Weapon, Primary Aspect
2- Primary weapon, Secondary aspect
3- Secondary weapon, Primary Aspect
4- Secondary weapon, secondary aspect
5- Tertiary Weapon
6- Players choice

Secondary aspects of weapons - simple to figure for most, though a 1 handed spear does not have one. A mace can thrust - resulting in a B attack of about 1-2B. A battle axes secondary aspect might be the haft - again, a 2b or so attack. A shield usually has no secondary aspect, so it is a pass. Tertiary weapons are punch, kick, body bash (press), etc.

I've also used a revised table of the above for two handed weapons - these are pretty quick usually because of the secondary hand being used. In additon, there is a simialr tabel for the defender, so they as well can always not use "best weapon, best aspect".

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Thanx very much for the insight!!

For missle attacks, could somone walk through a round or 2?

I am treating the 2nd weapon as a shield, ie no 2nd attack, however, I will look at the proposals and see what fits...

Being from the HM1 rules initially, the HMG seems odd at times, or my memory is skewed...

F3 fumble roll
S3 shock roll
Stuble roll
how are these performed... ?

For two handed attacks it is reasonable to assume if one person can do it so can everybody else. Shields are also effective weapons in combat.

It modrately complicates the combat but "two weapon" / "weapon and shield" can be added to Harninc combat. I give a "two handed" skill that is rolled at the begining of the character's turn - if successful they can employ both weapons durring thier attack or attack with one and use the second as a defense vs counterstrike. With MF no effect and with CF a fumble 4 and loose thier attack with either weapon.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I don't think you ever get an F# or S# in HMG, do you? Only B (bloodloss), A (amputation) and K (kill roll) get a number.

They're identified under the combat table. F = Fumble, S = Stumble, E = Shock, B = Bloodloss, A = Amputation, K = Kill. They are explained in the Glossdex in HMG, which drives me crazy, because it is alphabetical rather than by subject matter, and there's no reprinting of information (so the combat rules don't explain any of these!). I find it an infuriating way to give the information (same with the ritual invocations) - it'd be much easier for me to read if it were all split by subject matter and maybe was located in the right chapter of the rules.

Anyway:

F (Fumble) is DEX*5, subject to Physical Penalty, on a failure you drop the item in that hand.
S (Stumble) is Dodge or AGL*5, subject to Physical Penalty, on a failure you fall.
E (Shock) is Condition, subject to Physical Penalty (there's no E# in the injury tables, but A rolls involve E4/E5, which means a penalty of 4*5 or 5*5 respectively). The effects cover a few tables.
B (Bloodloss) points accumulate, and when they equal END, you fall unconscious; at END*2, you die.
A# (Amputation) is #d6 against weight/10, if the roll is higher the body part is amputated (this can happen on a 17+ Edge to the neck!).
K# (Kill) has a few options for rolling, either #d6 (dead if it exceeds END) or a Condition roll at #*5 penalty (not subject to Physical Penalty).

If you do run into F# or S#, then logically those are the roll with an extra penalty of #*5.

Please note that the Combat Tables in the HMG book may be screwed up, there's a fixed table PDF available online somewhere (I forget where I got it). Basically, a lot of the fourth severity injuries dropped codes because of formatting, so there's no K and A results visible at all.

Here is pretty much how combat runs in my game, using HM3

The combatants

Rolf (Ini/85, Falchion/75, Shield/65, Javelin/60, Physical Penalty -15)
Ulf (Ini/70, Handaxe/72, Knife/67, PP -10)
Leif (Ini/65, Bow/66, Knife/56, PP -10)

Versus

Gargun Leader (Ini/75, Mang/75, PP -10)
Gargun #1 (Ini/55, Mankar/55, Buckler/45, PP -10)
Gargun #2 (Ini/55, Mankar/55, Buckler/45, PP -10)
Gargun #3 (Ini/45, Crossbow/45, Knife/35, PP -5)


Set Up: (Ambushers) Rolf, Ulf, & Leif // Surprise a group of 4 Gargun


Round 1: (Set up Round)

1. Gargun are set up on map in order of march: Gargun #1 < 10-ft > Gargun Leader < 5-ft > Gargun #2 < 10-ft > Gargun #3
2. Hidden characters (Ambushers) reveal themselves - denoting the end of the round


Round 2: (Surprise Round)

1. Ambushers have a free round
2. Those with missile weapons may fire/throw
3. Those with melee weapons may move up to half their Move & Attack
4. Those ambushed must ignore

Rolf (Ini:85-15) throws (50% Activity) his Javelin (60-15) at the Gargun Leader; RESULT is (87) MF vs. Ignore = Miss [if Miss was 46-65% there is a chance of hitting adjacent target (odd left / even right)]

Ulf (Ini:70-10) Moves (50%) out of the bushes and Attacks (50%) Gargun #2 with 2-Weapons; Axe (72 +10-10) in Primary Hand and Knife (67 +5-10-5) in Off Hand, both suffer a -20, 2-Handed fighting penalty; RESULT is Axe MS & Knife MF vs. Ignore = (A*3 & A*1); Roll for damage and location: Damage: Axe 3d6 + 6 Edge = 16-IP to Thorax (Edge Protection = 7) = 9-IP (S3 Cut = E3 Shock Check); Knife 1d6 + 4 Puncture = 6-IP to Abdomen (Puncture Protection = 4) = 2-IP (M1 Stab = E1 Shock Roll); Gargun #2 (Endurance 11) manages to pass both checks.

Leif (Ini:65-10) fires an Arrow from his Bow (66-10) at Gargun #3; RESULT is MS vs. Ignore = (M*2); Roll for damage and location; Damage 2d6 + 6 Puncture = 13-IP to Right Upper Arm (Point Protection = 4) = 9-IP (M1 Stab = F2 Fumble Check); Gargun #3 (Dex 11 +2 Two handed weapon) fails and drops crossbow at his feet


Round 3: (Normal Rounds)

Rolf (Ini:85-15) already holding his shield, draws (25%) his falchion and Moves (50%) toward Gargun Leader, but cannot Attack him this round

Gargun Leader (Ini:75-10): First must take a Morale Test (vs. Initiative – Universal Penalty), which he MS; he then shouts for his Gargun to Attack (Command Roll vs. Initiative – UP) = MS; Result is the Gargun will FIGHT; as he is threatened by Rolf, he must draw (75%) his Mang under pressure [Test vs. Mang Skill - (PPx5) - HM]; 75 - 10 - 5 = 60% chance; result is CS and he not only gets to draws it, he is able to make an attack with it;

Gargun Leader Attacks (50%) with his Mang (75 +15-10) Rolf, who blocks with his Shield (65 + 20-10); RESULT MS vs. MS = (Block); (3d6) WQ Test: Shield WQ 10 fails by 3 and reduces WQ by 3 (now 7), Mang does not need to test.

The other Gargun acting on their leader's command to fight; now act;

Gargun #1; Not Engaged, draws (25%) his Mankar and Moves (50%) to attack Rolf, who fight with the leader, but cannot attack this round

Gargun #2; engaged with Ulf and suffering (S3 + M1 = -20% UP) wounds, thinks about running away, but fears his leader’s wrath even more; so under pressure, he tries to draw (75%) his weapon (55 - 30 - 0) = 25% chance; result is MF, and is unable to draw his weapon; but does have his shield in hand

Gargun #3; (M1 to shoulder), not engaged, picks up (25%) his crossbow and loads (75%) a bolt

Ulf (Ini:70-10) Attacks (50%) with his Axe (72 +10-10); Gargun #2, who Blocks with his Shield (45 +15-30); RESULT is MS & CF = (A*2); Roll for damage and location: Damage: Axe 2d6 + 6 Edge = 12-IP to Left Thigh (Edge Protection = 3) = 9-IP (S3 Cut = S3 Stumble Check & E2 Shock Check); the Gargun #2 (Agility 9 - 4 = 5 / Endurance 11 - 4 = 7) fails both the Stumble, & the Shock Check, collapsing to ground unconscious; giving Ulf a Tactical Advantage (TA).

Ulf; with his TA, throws (50%) his Knife 67 -10 -10 (Fire & Move Penalty) at the Gargun #1 and Moves (50%) to the Gargun Leader; Gargun #1 engaged with Rolf is unaware of knife speeding towards him; RESULT is CF vs. Ignore = (Wild); knife harmlessly sails past and hits a nearby stone, failing the (3d6) WQ check by 2 and reducing the knife’s WQ to 8;

Leif (Ini:65-10) fires an arrow from his Bow (66-10) at Gargun #3, who see him and ducks for cover; RESULT is MF vs. (50%) Dodge = Miss


Round 4 (Normal Rounds Continue)

Rolf (Ini:85-10) Attack (50%) with his Falchion (75 +15-15) the Gargun Leader, who Counterstrikes with Mang (75 +15-10); RESULT is MS vs. MS = (B*1) Both Strike; Rolf (1d6 + 6 Edge + 1 Strength) = 12-IP to Neck (Edge Protection of 3) = 9-IP (S3 Cut = B1 & E3 Shock Check); Gargun Leader (1d6 + 6 + 1 Strength) = 11-IP to Thorax (Edge Protection of 5) = 6-IP (S2 Cut = E2 Shock Check); Rolf manages to pass the shock check; but the Gargun leader succumbs to the serious neck cut and collapse to the ground unconscious, bleeding to death; giving Rolf a TA.

Rolf with his TA, attack (50%) Gargun #1 with his Falchion (75 +15-15-10), Gargun #1 Blocks with his buckler (45 +15 -10); RESULT is MS vs. MF = (A*1); Rolf (1d6 + 6 Edge + 1 Strength) = 13-IP to Abdomen (Edge Protection of 3) = 10-IP (S3 Cut = B1 & E3 Shock Check); Gargun #1, his gut ripped open, collapses to the ground unconscious, bleeding to death. No TA generated on TA.

Gargun Leader is unconscious and bleeding to death; he no longer is in command; so it's every Gargun for himself and they use their own Initiative Rating

Ulf (Ini:70-10) Moves (50%) and Attacks (50%) aiming High with his Axe (72 +10-10-10) Gargun #3, who having a loaded Crossbow (45 -5-5) does FPF (Final Protective Fire); RESULT is MS vs. MF = (A*2); Roll for damage and location: Damage: Axe 2d6 + 6 Edge = 16-IP to Skull (Edge Protection = 3) = 13-IP (G4 Cut = K3 Kill Check); the Gargun #3 (Endurance 11) fails the Kill Check collapsing to ground Dead, giving Ulf a TA.

Ulf; must first make a Strength Check to Pull his axe free from Gargun #3's skull (3d6 vs. Strength 11), he fails and struggles (50%) to remove it; once freed, he looks about for another Gargun to attack.

Leif (Ini:65-10) joins his companions on the trail

Gargun #1 is Dead

Gargun #2 is lying on the ground Unconscious

Gargun #3 is Dead


This example is similar to the last ambush one of my party conducted and it goes pretty smoothly, once everyone know the procedure and pays attention to what is happening.

Throughout the example are numerous House Rules such as:

a) Impact Bonus for Strength
b) Drawing Weapons while under pressure
c) Final Protective Fire for readied missile weapons
d) Command and Control (from Battlelust)
e) Two-Weapon Fighting
f) Action Time Requirement

I hope this example helps…

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For what it's worth, that's the way I see it

As used from HM1 they are:

The higher the number the more difficult the roll:
F3 is 3d6 vs Dex Fumble Roll
E3 is 3d6 vs END shock roll
S4 is 4d6 vs Agility Stumble roll
A5 is 5d6 vs index of Body Weight Amputate roll
K5 is 5d6 vs END Kill Roll

K5 roll 5d6 - if the total exceeds END the target dies. Any K roll also implies an E shock roll one die higher.


While I liked the Idea of Condition and resistance introduced in HMG the mechanics of them are fatally flawed. If your Condition is 50 you pass out in 2 hits regardless of the size of the injury (1 IP twice or 20 IP twice is 75% and 96% likely).

The percentile rolls in HMG don't work as well as the Xd6 methods did in HM1 but at least if the F# equates to (5*Dex - 5*#) it adjusts for difficulty. It wouldn't fix Condition but it would at least help if the combat charts had E# rolls depending on the size of the injury. But basically repeated injury is the key with HMG - unless you have a Condition > 100 even the smallest injury repeated will put the target down.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I did not like condition. Too improvable, reminded me of getting back to "hit points" that increase by level. I am not opposed with strength or fatigue being somewhat trainable - but only a slight increase in endurance should be possible IMO.

The other thing - with stuns being the most common result of combat, it made combat deadly to the point you were cut to ribbons before passing out. Tis acually may be realistic - but would probably need some sort of a "morale" rule in there as well.

For instance - NPC gets stunned by a serious wound to his chest - there is a great possibility that he will decide to take himself out of combat, maybe lying on the ground, maybe cluthing the wound, or maybe even "playing" dead, or just me out of the fight. Initiative, amybe average with 5x will might work the best here.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Wait, how/why? Only Torso, Head, Fire, and Edge-to-Knee hits have a Shock roll on the lowest category, and it takes a CF to pass out; on MF, you're Stunned (granted, a pretty bad condition if you use the optional rule that you are forced to Ignore if you get attacked before you recover).

Am I missing something?

I totally agree with Turin that morale should be used in some form; I just prefer GM fiat, but there are other options. I've read up on wound physiology and psychology (for a cyberpunk game project), and as far as I could tell, it's fairly likely that any injury in a combat situation will disable a fighter psychologically even if they're physiologically fine - people may literally pass out from gunshot wounds without being that severely injured or being in cardiovascular shock. But then, some people are like Mike Platt, and won't go down from a fatal gunshot wound that fails to do enough damage to disable them immediately. I'd make it an Initiative roll, because "fighting spirit" seems to be a core issue.

To me, the bottom line is that it's not a D&D game: real people don't fight until they die, they get taken out and die later on. In fact, instant death (and no rules for slow death at all) is a major problem I see in the enormous majority of RPGs: really, it takes very serious injuries (massive blood loss or CNS damage) to kill someone on the spot. Especially in a medieval setting, most deaths would result later from complications.

I don't actually like that HMG's Shock seems to conflate psychological "shock" (being "shocked", frightened, irrational, etc.) and physiological shock (a drop in blood pressure), but maybe it's an acceptable compromise to avoid excessive complexity. Being stunned seems like a result of psychological shock; being unconscious or incapacitated is physiological shock.

And limiting Condition (and Mobility) improvement to SB6 or so seems pretty reasonable. You can train to be faster, too, but you're going to run up against a wall eventually just based on your physical make-up.

Yeah, not a bad idea. That way an 18 in endurance caps at a "condition" of 108, by the 13 type peaks at 78.

One thing here - Strength can be improved, most likley muscle mass added. To do so in a realistic way would have a lot of factors, diet or enough food/protein being a key factor. Probably too complicated though.

However, if done, one would have a "max lean muscle mass" based on height and frame.

Fatigue - this is definitely trainable, depending on how out of shape someone is at their starting point.

If you look at strength and fatigue as trainable, what does the stat score truly represent? Their current status? Cureent as opposed to maximum? Or are they maxed out?

My thoughts were to average the initial Stat score with 20, rounding down. So a 3 in Fatigue has a lot of room for improvement - all the way to a 12, but an 18 can only increase to a 19. The 18 type has pretty well maxed out most of their potential.

That makes the most sense to be.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

One could segment Shock into three categories Acute, Contingent, and Chronic. Applied at GM discrection I suppose.

Acute = just the one combat round.
Contingent = Each time used, such as an arm that has a fracture and a player tries to climb a ladder, swim, or whatever.
Chronic = Counts towards shock all the time...like a broken limb that constantly aches.

It would be neat if the concepts in Phoenix Command regarding wounds could be incorporated into HarnMaster. It would tone done the Hit Point feel. In Phoenix Command you have the concept of Critical Time Period, the amount of time the player has to seek medical aid before the he has to roll to see if he survives. The more severe the wound the less amount of time he gets.

So say for a Grievous Injury to the arm, a player might get 18 combat rounds (serious bleeding) before he has to roll. Then when the time comes to test the outcome you could test on a matrix. The worst matrix could be like an Ignore where there are just 4 results, meaning the player wasn't able to disengage combat. The results would be Death, Coma, and so on. Then the next best matrix would be Triage/First Aid, where you get to cross index a Healing roll with the players Condition check. The results on here would give +4 hours or +6 hours besides Death and Coma. The next would be Field Hospital where a Physician has time to properly treat the wounded. On the Matrix HR results appear. Perhaps on a final Matrix would be like going to a Church of Peoni or Physician in a city that would have even better HR results.

Interesting. Do you have any info on these wound/healing tables?

I like Harn as differentiating from hit points, but what I have read about real combat it seems what you have above mirrors it much more closely. Plus I think it would play well, and would not be a big disad for PC's.

Here is a real good article that shows some good examples on how wounds effect people in combat - geared towards a melee hand to hand type of combat, alond with real life examples.

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.php

And a brief excerpt:

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Fyvrian healer sounds like. Nobles can afford the best treatments.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

In Swords Path Glory Book2 there is a formula for Critical Time Period.

CTP= (50 + % roll) x (Health) x (RTS) / 1000 minutes

RTS is Recovery Time Scale. In HarnMaster terms the scale would be based of a damage range of 1-30

Where 1 IP would be 995, 15 IPs 500 and 30 IPs 002.

Change Health into Endurance. Lets say the Harn character has a 14 Endurance stat.


So the HarnMaster character takes a 30 IP wound.

Roll d100 and get a 75.

(125) x (14) x (002) / 1000 minutes

In 3.5 minutes he has to test his survival chance from that wound. Heavy bleeding and such.

Well, unless the Lord of Dorset transported himself to Harn, I don't think this was the case



Probably a simpler way to do this to convert to the HM system.

How is the survival checked?

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

It would seem like testing survival chance for a 1 IP wound should be "never"

By the formula 30 IP wounds are tested in a range of 1 to 5 minutes. Is it the intent that (practically all) wounds not be tested for survival until after combat is over? (10 second rounds).

Would it work something like: you get a Kill result and you tell the player "you will have to make a K roll in [X time] to see if you survive this wound"?

When would an immediate kill determination be made?

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Just my 2d, it seems like it, though I would think there are varying degree of survivability from what he has said, death, coma, temporary "stun", etc.



If in line with most wounds received from middle ages type weapons, the best answer would probably be "almost never".

Maybe they are KO'd, or just too afraid/shocked to do anything but look at their wound - but instant kills are almost never, a bad bleeder would still allow someone to last for a bit.

Maybe a check could be rolled avery so often when one has a severe wound, a check possibly even caused by a minor injury. Lends dredence to being KO's by that bruise to one's foot

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

You cross index the damage on a table and modify for certain things like activity level. You test CTP a total 5 times. If the character passes them all he lives.


Creating a matrix would be way more intresting. You could have a result character is alive but is now at -10 for all activities. Just spreading different modifiers out across the matrix.


A Harn style Injury Table could go
1d4
1d6+4
1d8+10
1d10+18
1d12+28
1d20+40

The RTS scale would go from 1-60. In SPG its 12 columns each with 40 rows so a range of 1-480. A lot of granularity.

Pretty much, yeah. It takes massive damage to the central nervous system (spine and brain) to kill someone on the spot. Head injuries would get Kill rolls, and Neck injuries would keep the Amputation rolls; I'd also leave the Kill rolls on the serious Thorax/Abdomen injuries, to reflect damage to the spine etc. (Although, really, these would not be instant death either; a wound to the abdomen would probably mean you're bleeding so massively from your internal organs that you're dying very fast from shock - i.e. no blood to bring oxygen to your brain - and a thorax wound would mean massive damage to your heart or lungs, preventing oxygen or blood carrying oxygen from reaching the brain, killing you quickly.) Actually, checking the tables, this is exactly the HMG combat table. Head areas (skull, eye, face, neck), thorax, and abdomen are the lethal locations.

Really, "instant death" is more like "unavoidable and swift death", unless your brain actully gets destroyed (very possible with hits to the head, and the reason helms are popular) or your head gets severed.

I actually intentionally designed my cyberpunk combat rules so that the main risk in a fight (mostly firefights, in this case) is being psychologically incapacitated (passing out or simply becoming useless), and the second is going into cardiovascular shock. Incidentally, actually passing out from "fear" is apparently a kind of shock reaction with psychological causes - vessels contract and you get less oxygen for the brain, leading to fainting. It's why people feel faint and turn pale from extreme psychological stress - those are shock symptoms.

Similarly, I've been running RuneQuest for years so that non-heroic opponents are incapacitated or give up when they receive a major wound - it helps that my campaigns don't involve a lot of monsters, so that the PCs and the enemies usually have a good expectation of proper treatment and ransom when they surrender. When that safety net isn't in place - either because the PCs removed it, or the enemy is nonhuman - the enemy will fight desperately to the last, which makes a much bigger risk for the PCs.

Sounds like a reasonable method might be that if someone fails a K roll instead of dying on the spot they go to a "death level" treated like a shock, contaigion or infection level which they might roll against every minute or so until they recover completely at "death level 7" or fall to "death level zero" and actually die.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)