Had an interesting situation come up in last night's game, and upon further study of the rules, I'm a bit confused by something.

The PC's are chasing a bandit (Guy with Staff; Guy with Unarmed; and Guy with Longbow). The bandit has a shield, but has lost his weapon.

The three catch up with the bandit; the Longbow Guy stands 10 hexes back.

All three PC's attack first, at slightly different initiatives (but they all go before the bandit).

Guy with Staff and Guy with Unarmed are both "engaged" with the bandit; they are in "base-to-base" (or hex-to-hex) contact with him.

Guy with Staff attacks first. Bandit blocks. His outnumbered penalty, according to HM3 rules, is -10 (-10 for each additional attacker "engaged" with you).

Unarmed guy attacks, tries to Grapple. Bandit Dodges, again with -10 to his defense due to outnumbering penalties.

Then Longbow guy shoots. Bandit tries to block with his shield. Assume he is "aware" of the attack. What's his penalty?

The rules (HM3, Combat 11) say that outnumbering penalties apply only if the character is "exclusively engaged" (meaning, according to their definition of "engaged", being in base-to-base contact). The Longbow guy is NOT "engaged" with the bandit, so technically the bandit should only receive a -10 penalty to his block defense versus the incoming arrow (to account for the two enemies he IS engaged with). Yet, later in the paragraph, it says the EML for defense is decreased for each enemy above one; this would seem to imply that, since the bandit is being attacked by three enemies at virtually the same time, his defense penalty to ALL the incoming attacks should be at -20 (to represent the three enemies he has to focus on defending against). It also just makes sense that he would be penalized against all attacks as though he were engaged with 3 guys, since he is actively defending against three attacks all coming in at once (more or less).

To postulate further on the example, what if said bandit was surrounded by 4 guys, and being shot at by two bowman (forget for the moment the dangers of "wild attacks" by firing into a crowd). His defense against the 4 melee attacks would be at -30; but shouldn't his defense also realistically be penalized by the two arrows coming in as well (resulting in a total -50 to all attacks)?

Thoughts?

EDIT: Or an even simpler example: you're being shot at by three bowman (you're NOT engaged with anyone). You have a shield to block. What's your penalty? According to the RAW, no penalty at all, as no one is "engaged" with you, right? Even though it would seem reasonable to apply the same outnumbering penalties here (ie -20 to each block attempt). Am I missing something obvious...?

To postulate further on the example, what if said bandit was surrounded by 4 guys, and being shot at by two bowman (forget for the moment the dangers of "wild attacks" by firing into a crowd). His defense against the 4 melee attacks would be at -30; but shouldn't his defense also realistically be penalized by the two arrows coming in as well (resulting in a total -50 to all attacks)?

If you mean six attackers in total 4 melee and two missile...then probably should.. However, the rules do state if exclusively engaged...so no.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

According to HM3 rules - No, there is no penalty if shot for example by two archers, but

It is also said that you can only defend yourself against missile combat if you are aware.


This can be used, of course against someone that is engaged in melee, but also against someone that already has performed a block against an archer earlier in the round.
Edit: And a failed awareness means Ignore defense

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

My thought is that it should be difficult to even get a shot off. Per HM3 -



I would think a "Miss" means anything that does not strike the target or a shield.

From HMG (which uses different a slightly different missile system) it does not seem to specify the actions of firing into a melee, but we have this:







From this (which is perhaps open to some interpretation) first question is line of sight - which perhaps means the LOS is obscured if there is a target engaged in melee, so no loosing of arrows.

Otherwise, if interpreted to allow missile fire into the hex, one must determine where exactly the missile strikes, where the "friendlies" are as to LOS - a very difficult/complicated process.

IMO, the HM3 system makes loosing arrows into a melee to easy, HMG makes it too complicated.

I've used some experimental "houserules" for this as well. This is one method I have used:

1) The missile user rolls either Ini, Missile ML, or Awareness (Or a composite of the above). The base idea for the roll is the ML mentioned, using the following formula:

(ML/2)+25.

This is the first roll. a CS/MS means they may then losse into combat, a MF/CF means they must pass without being able to loose into the melee.

The next step is then to loose into Melee, here I'd use the HM3 system for loosing into a melee.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Yeah, the problem with this is that it makes missile weapons even MORE devastating (some might say they're overpowered already... some, including some of my players). According to those rules, its EASIER for an archer to damage a man engaged in combat than if he is not (for if he is engaged, he's unaware...and therefore the attack is rolled on the Ignore table, where even a MS is a brutal 2* hit); when clearly it should be much HARDER to hit and damage a man when he's whirling around in combat with your sword-wielding friend.

I think the easiest way to deal with this is just apply the outnumbered penalty to defenses versus ALL incoming attacks that you are aware of (and I'm pretty generous with allowing someone under arrow fire to be aware of the attack - unless the archer is attacking from a hidden spot, for example. Otherwise, Longbow Joe is waaayyyy too powerful, considering the extra damage on the Ignore table added to an already hefty 8p damage within 20 hexes - a range that the VAST majority of my tabletop hexmap battles occur at). So in my previous example, the bandit would be penalized the full -30 (for two melee attackers and one bowman) to all his defenses that round. And the guy blocking three archers' arrows with his shield would do so at -20 per Block roll.

My players don't like to shot into a melee because of the wild fire rule (you hit the wrong guy, your comrade in arms most likely) and the miss rule which means that if the arrow misses it can hit the character fighting your enemy (your friend) and those attacks are surprises and hard to defend against.
But you're right, the simplest rule here is to assume that someone shot at is also engaged (in some way he is).

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

The extra Dice of damage for ignore vs a melee attack makes sense. The player can "load up" and swing real hard without concern for their own defense. Or if using aiming rules like with Warflail, one can spend a ton of ML points to aim for a weak spot - after all, a MF still results in a *1 attack.

For missile weapons though the extra die from ignore makes little sense. The bow will not losse the arrow any harder if the target ignores.

Anyway, melee is hardly static. While the characters may be positioned stationary in a hex for game terms, there is a heck of a lot more movement going on than this would indicate. I'd think the target even if unaware if engaged in melee should get at least /12 dodge.

The only exception to this would be soldiers maintaining a close order formation in more large scale combat - very little dodge would be possible here, the best option would of course be either a chield block or if unaware passive cover from the shield if launched from the front or left flank, assuming men in a formation are all right handed (all Roman soldiers in formation were right handed)

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I don't dispute the philosophy of having the extra damage die on the missile Ignore attack table. To me, it simulates the fact that the target is wholly unaware of the attack (and can therefore make no active defense), which gives the archer just those extra few moments to aim the shot (much like your melee example of "loading up"). The problem is that a Longbow at close range (100'!) does a whopping 8p damage, plus the damage dice - and most armor protects comparatively little piercing damage.



No argument here. But my take on what constitutes an "unaware" target is someone who never suspected an incoming missile attack. So, the sniper in the trees would get the first shot off using the Ignore table; after that, the target would definitely get an Awareness roll, and even failing that, would now still be "aware" that someone was shooting at him from "somewhere over there in those trees". Whereas a bandit being attacked out in the open by a few melee fighters, and who sees their bowman friend behind them drawing down, would not be required to roll an Awareness to defend against the arrow - but that bowman would count towards the bandit's Outnumbering penalty on his defense.

One thing about a bow, which is different than a gun or crossbow - you don't really sit there at full draw and "aim" - Now, you may do it in a slower more deliberate fashion, but a bow is not held for "aim" - it is more inaccurate loosing an arrow this way. And if you truly want to reflect a more diliberate or accurately aimed shot - do it with aiming mods, not extra dice. Again, it's not going to hit any harder due to the target being unaware.

Where I see as huge advantage though for a target which is "ignoring" are a few different things though.

First - The target will likley be either immobile, or moving in a non-erratic way. This helps a lot with aim. IMO, an erratically moving target at about any range is tough to make the aiming area anything other than a generic "high" "low" or middle - with a much greater chance of missing if aimin high or low.

With a static target, you can aim for a specific area - same with a target moving in a regular fashion (such as walking in a straight line). The other thing - If they have a shield, all you worry about is passive protection - if they are aware of the attack, they may move erratically by intent, could actively use the shield to block, etc.

Of course, someone in melee combat is usually moving erratically whether or not they are aware of the missile



I guess my big point here is that shooting into an active melee should not be as easy as HM makes it. With erratic movement by all parties, even the best bowman may well strike their friend who is in the melee and moved in front of the target when the arrow was loosed.

That's why I like the idea of having to make a roll to see if you are even allowed to loose an arrow, with a failure meaning you passed for that round. And this whould not be made at full ML - even that 100+ ML bowman may not have the opportunity for a clean shot. Actually, a 50/50 chance might be more realistic - but factoring ML into the chance of a clean shot makes the game a bit more friendly to those with high ML's.

There would be exceptions, mostly based on the height of the target - shooting at the body of a Hru or at a mounted rider attacking foot would be a heck of a lot easier.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

In HM1 the rules state:

If the target is aware of the missle attack he may select Block or Dodge. If the target is stationary and not aware of the attack, he selects Ignore. If the Target is moving (engaged in Melee for example) the defence is always Dodge, even if he is unaware of the attack.


Later in Harn Lore 11 High Velocity / Low Velocity Weapon Class was added.

When a character has to defend against more than one missile attack in the course of a single turn, it seems reasonable to expect some kind of penalty to apply to said defence. I use a -5 per successive missile attack after the first.

On the matter of missile defence, I've thought of subtracting the range EML modifiers for the attack from defence EML, i.e. the farther the attack comes from, the easier it is to avoid; an arrow loosed from 200 yards has more than four seconds flight time, while one barely has time to blink before a heavy crossbow bolt shot from 20 feet hits its target.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Yeah, the range factors are a huge issue here, and target movement is just as important.

For example, hitting a still man sized target at 100 yards is not difficultfor any bowman that has a decent amount of training - I'd say a still man sized target should probably give a value of +20 as your "average but skilled archer" is probably in the 60-70 ML range.

Make the same target move but in a straight line, you might be 70% likley to hit. Have it move erratically and you are probably at best 50-50.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....