I'm having a real problem trying to understand how the UPP is applied.

Page: Skills 6
We have the following:

Universal Penalty (the sum of Injury and Fatigue penalties) is applied to ALL Attributes when they are tested.

But then the example says:

Kalgyn therefore has a Universal Penalty of 3, and would subtract 3 from any non-physical attribute such as a test against WILL.

The first says all attributes

The second says non-physical attributes

I've always struggled getting my head around this, I don't think I've ever been comfortable with it.

Is it errata, could someone please help me out?

Thank you

Is this the same question as before?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11410&hilit=universal+penalty

It is yes, but to be honest, none of the replies resolved the issue. I thought they had (evidence of one of the posts there), but having come back to Harn months later, I'm lost again.

I was hoping someone might be able to clarify for me this time around.

There might be a very easy solution to all this. I just need someone who is well versed in the Harnmaster rules to confirm the following is correct. Forget the example, as long as I

Apply the Universal Penalty to ALL Attribute tests.

And

Apply the Physical Penalty to all physical attribute tests.

Everything is fine?

That's essentially it, yes.

Universal Penalty (UP) is injury and fatigue. It applies (universally) to every test, whether physical or non-physical.

Example: Kalgyn has a M1 wound and F1 Fatigue. His Universal Penalty is thus 2. If he needs to make a test against his Mathematics ML, then go swimming, both rolls would be subject to the Universal Penalty.

Physical Penalty is UP plus encumbrance. Encumbrance ONLY applies to physical tests.

Example: Having done the math, Kalgyn decides to go swimming. His encumbrance value of 2 is added to his UP of 2 to give him a Physical Penalty of 4. This is applied to his swimming test.

Thank you very much, that's a relief.

The amount of times I've picked up Harn and put it down again becuase of that rule, or more specifically, the confusing example, is unbelievable. I blame my O.C.D.

Thanks again

Warden wrote:
Since PP equals UP plus ENC, UP only is applied to NON-physical attributes, and PP only is applied to Physical tests. That is, the rules author is saying that physical attributes are tested with PP, which already includes UP, so UP is not used ALSO. Badly phrased.
My thought: the rules should say that Mental attributes are tested with UP, but Physical attributes are tested with (UP plus ENC).

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

But if you have no encumbrance penalty, the UP is applied to NON-physical attributes. I mean, if I have 2 fatigue levels, and 3 injury levels, for UP 5, and no encumbrance, then I do apply the UP 5 to non-physical skills/attributes yes?

The term "Universal Penalty is a misnomer. It should be re-named "Mental Penalty" (MP=Fatigue+Injuries), and it is applied to non-physical attributes.
"Physical Penalty" is MP+ENC, and is applied to all Physical attributes.

_________________
Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

If you have no encumbrance (naked?) and your UP is 5 (2 FL + 3 IL) then your PP still would be calculated the same = Encumbrance + UP or in this case 0 + 5 = 5.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Right, so it's applied to Eyesight, Hearing, Smell, Voice, Intelligence, Aura and Will?

Very true.

If the terms "Universal" and "Physical" are what's causing the confusion, maybe try this:

Universal Penalty (Injury and Fatigue) applies to ALL tests (whether attributes or skills).

If the test is physical in nature, ADD Encumbrance to get your Physical Penalty.

It's not "either/or" -- Universal always applies. The only variable is whether you consider Encumbrance, and that only applies to Physical tests. (My ability to do math, quote scripture, or tell an engaging story is not adversely impacted if I am wearing 50+ pounds of armor; however, my ability to swim, jump, fight, ride a horse, etc. is certainly affected.)

So whatever you choose to call it, that's how it works. Keep in mind, though, that there is nothing that applies strictly to "mental" tasks, so renaming it "Mental Penalty" is even less accurate.

This has absolutely nailed it for me.

I also have a 'Player's Guide to Harn' word doc. and it states (amongst other things):

Universal and Physical Penalties
The Physical Penalty only modifies skills relating to physical activities, such as combat and athletics. The Universal Penalty modifies every skill roll. The actual modifier to the skill is the penalty times five. Thus a Universal Penalty of four equates to a minus 20 penalty.

The Universal Penalty is the combination of Injury and Fatigue. The Physical Penalty is the combination of the Universal Penalty and encumbrance. The Encumbrance Penalty is equal to the weight carried divided by the character's Endurance.

Brilliant

Thank you all very much!

Warden wrote: Yes. If attempting to "Listen at a door", roll percentile dice vs HRGx5-UP-other modifiers, where "other modifiers" will be the thickness of the door, background noise, etc. UP affects mental rolls because the character who is wounded or tired is less attentive, has "lost his edge", etc.

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

The way I am going to play it is; UP affects absolutely everything, but Encumbrance is added to UP (PP) when physical aspects come into play.

There was also a rule in HM1, though I don't see it in HM3 or HMG at a quick glance.

This rule if is the activity was rather sedentary, 1/2 of the penalty applies. The examples used was archery, which would be at GM discretion as to whether to apply full or half penalty. I think the GM discretion would see if the archer was being active, such as moving at shooting perhaps, or being stationary.

Picking a lock would be sedentary IMO, or listening at a door. One could say craft skills could be considered sedentary by this definiton, but for plowing 8 hours I think the penalty should apply, but not when doing something like an appraisal.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I think that rule has become this one ...

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Aha! My quick glance missed it

I've used it anyway, thought it was a good idea back from the HM1 days

I would think it would make sense to apply this for all skills where the character is not particualrily active, such as listening/awareness tests, many uses of skills, etc.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....