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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:31 am 
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Fenhorn wrote:
Harnmaster 3 - Combat 4
Quilt Leggings WT 9,2 and PR 184d.

It should be WT 13,2 and PR 176d. It has the same coverage as any other Leggings so it should weight the same as Tunic (that have the same Coverage as Leggings in HM3).

Edit: I should be mentioned that the HM3 Armour has more issues than this. The list is build upon the following coverage percentage:
Skull 4%, Face 3%, Neck 4%;
Shoulder 4%, Upper Arm 6%, Elbow 2%, Forearm 5%, Hand 4%;
Thorax 12%, Abdomen 12%, Groin 1%
Hip 9%, Thigh 14%, Knee 3%, Calf 10%, Foot 6%.

Material (WT/PR):
Cloth (0,1/1d), Leather (0,2/4d), Quilt (0,3/4d), Kurbul (0,25/5d), Ring (0,4/7d), Mail (0,5/15d), Scale (0,7/10d), Plate (0,8/25d).

Anyone who can count can see that 1% is missing from the list. If we assume that most of the armour table is correct, the missing percentage should be in a leg location (there is only 43% legs, counting groin, it should be 44% according to all leggings armour). To avoid changing the entire table (changing % for Thigh or Hip would cause other issues for Hauberks for example), the easiest fix is to increase the Foot percentage to 7%. This change makes only the shoes/boots armour to be wrong, but changing anything else would make more items wrong.

Shoes: WT 1,4 / PR 28d
Calfboots: WT 3,4 / PR 68d
Kneeboots: WT 4,0 / PR 80d

In this example, I changed Foot for the reason that in HM1, Foot percentage was 7%. In HM1 Calves was 12% so I could go there as well, but then more armour parts would have to change.

Perhaps not the most important issue, but worth mentioning here if anyone who doesn't have HM1 but still want to figure out the formulas and create their own armours.

If you don't have HM1 I copied the table with permission and it can be found at http://www.jswatson.info

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:20 am 
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The side bar in Combat 23 wrote:
Quote:
Cavalrymen do not risk their extemely valuable horses galloping over battlefields....

Historically cavalry charges ended in the gallop. For an account of one such case read about the charge of the 21st Lancers at the battle of Omdurman 2 September 1898 as cited in The River War Winston Spencer Churchhill I should should also mention the charge of the Prussian Heavy Cavalry against the French in 1870 or the French Cavalry against the English at Waterloo in 1815. These charges took place as cavalry charges of the old style were fading form the scene after some thousands of years of mounted warfare.

The side bar in Combat 23 wrote:
Quote:
Horses are extremely reluctant to charge into each other. Unless both steeds are separated by a short wall, they will veer apart beyond the range of most melee weapons. charges against mounted opponents are rare except in orgaized tournaments (and Hollywood movies)....

The following is a quote from Henry Dwight Sedgwick The Black Prince c 1932 p.42. Sedgwick was a respected Military Historian of the time wrote the following on the crossing of the Somme
Quote:
There were, I tell you, many a joust and many pretty feats of arms.
This was mounted combat at ford in a river. On page 44 he wrote:
Quote:
A chivalric episode, ... adds a high light to the scene. The tide had come in and the river was no longer fordable and scarce passable, when a French Knight in Phillp's army rode up along the bank and shouted across to know if there was not some English knight who would come over and joust three courses for the love of his lady. An Englishman from the north country, Sir Thomas Colville by name, heard the challenge, mounted his horse and plunged into river at peril to his life. ... he reach the farther bank safely. The gallants ran two courses. At the second the Frenchman's shield was broken.

Keep in mind there were no fences or walls seperating the horses and they did come within melee range of each other. Horses have no objection to get close and will even fight other horses Stallions will fight to establish breeding rights and mares to estable rank in a herd. So horses will charge other horses, I would suggest that the side bar paragraphs under Mounted Charges should be ignored.

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Last edited by Jwatson19 on Wed May 25, 2011 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:16 am 
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Jwatson19 wrote:
Keep in mind there were no fences or walls seperating the horses and they did come within melee range of each other. Horses have no objection to get close and will even fight other horses Stallions will fight to establish breeding rights and mares to estable rank in a herd. So horses will charge other horses, I would suggest that the side bar paragraphs under Mounted Charges should be ignored.


It may be natural for a horses to fight each other, but I've yet to see or read any evidence of horses charging headlong towards each other even for breeding rights in a natural setting. When horses hight I have seen documentaries horses kick stomp and bite eacjh other but never galloping headlong at each other (of course doesn't mean they dont). There are also several reasons the charge only ended in the gallop rather than going flat out from the onset. The danger of the horse finding a rabbit, gopher or some other blasted burrowing animals hole discouraged the charge over an extended distance.

In your example of the knights you need to remember that the riders would have 1)highly trained horses and more importantly would have made (in game terms) a successful horsemanship roll.

The side bar shouldn't be tossed, rather it helps by requiring a horsemanship roll to make such an action.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Algared wrote:
Jwatson19 wrote:
Keep in mind there were no fences or walls seperating the horses and they did come within melee range of each other. Horses have no objection to get close and will even fight other horses Stallions will fight to establish breeding rights and mares to estable rank in a herd. So horses will charge other horses, I would suggest that the side bar paragraphs under Mounted Charges should be ignored.


It may be natural for a horses to fight each other, but I've yet to see or read any evidence of horses charging headlong towards each other even for breeding rights in a natural setting. When horses hight I have seen documentaries horses kick stomp and bite eacjh other but never galloping headlong at each other (of course doesn't mean they dont). There are also several reasons the charge only ended in the gallop rather than going flat out from the onset. The danger of the horse finding a rabbit, gopher or some other blasted burrowing animals hole discouraged the charge over an extended distance.

In your example of the knights you need to remember that the riders would have 1)highly trained horses and more importantly would have made (in game terms) a successful horsemanship roll.

The side bar shouldn't be tossed, rather it helps by requiring a horsemanship roll to make such an action.

What discouraged the charge over an extended distance was mount fatigue. A horse can gallop for about a mile then it will tire and slow to a walk. Most charges started at a walk, then a trot, then a canter, before the gallop. As for charging head long towards each other horses have a very good sense of how much room they need and will charge each other in such a way as to just miss colliding. Small animal burrows were seldom a problem.

The side bar does create an incorect impression especially the part about not coming within melee range which even horses not trained to war will do. Horses have no objection to coming close to other horses or objects.

If the side bar is to be saved at all it needs to be completely re-written and the re-write should omit the horsemanship roll.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:30 am 
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I have a sort-of side question: what is the difference between 2nd Edition Harn World and 3rd Edition? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:45 am 
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Jame Rowe wrote:
I have a sort-of side question: what is the difference between 2nd Edition Harn World and 3rd Edition? Thanks!

Harn 'World'? As far as i know, absolutely nothing at all.

The setting/world has been pretty constant since it, well, for a long time now.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:48 am 
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Warden wrote:
Jame Rowe wrote:
I have a sort-of side question: what is the difference between 2nd Edition Harn World and 3rd Edition? Thanks!

Harn 'World'? As far as i know, absolutely nothing at all.

The setting/world has been pretty constant since it, well, for a long time now.


So, as long as I have a copy of HarnMaster (and possibly another rules system that I'm more familiar with to run, if I can get any players), I should be fine?

And again, thanks. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:50 am 
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Warden wrote:
Harn 'World'? As far as i know, absolutely nothing at all.

The setting/world has been pretty constant since it, well, for a long time now.

I talked about several messed up changes in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12220&p=159169#p159169

There were also some discussions in other threads that mentioned some details that got dropped from later editions. Pretty esoteric stuff though.

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Last edited by Feanor on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:53 am 
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HârnWorld was systemless RPG world at first, the rules came later. So newer modules of HârnWorld has nicer layout and sometimes a little bit more information.

HârnMaster 2nd Edition (also HMC) and HârnMaster 3rd Edition (or HM3) are pretty much the same. HM3 contains some corrections and also some extra rules forgotten in HMC).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:54 am 
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I suspect (please correct me you veteran rules lawyers!) that all the HM stuff except for Skills, Combat and Psionics relates to integrating characters to setting and is useful in many systems. For example, if you use Chaosium's BRP system, it is still useful to have the Campaign and similar content even if the skills and combat don't fit BRP.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:23 pm 
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Is this errata?

SKILL 21: "Whenever possible, test an attribute as if it were a skill. Multiply the attribute by 3–7 (depending on the difficulty of the task) then tested with percentile dice like a skill. This allows the four levels of success/failure to be generated."

But 3-7 is 5 levels of success/failure.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Not an erratum.

Eg. assume the attribute is 10.

Decide how difficult the test is. For a hard test multiply by 3 and thus try to roll 30 or less, for something much easier multiply by 7 and try to roll 70 or less.

Levels of success are CS; MS; MF; CF.
Levels of success for 30 will be CS on a 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30; MS on all other numbers 1-29; CF on a 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100; MF on all other numbers 31-99.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:06 pm 
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Ah right, ok thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Does the newly released errata resolve the discrepencies concerning HM Religion and Barbarian OMLs?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:24 am 
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Warden wrote:
Does the newly released errata resolve the discrepencies concerning HM Religion and Barbarian OMLs?


Yes. See this thread. Or better yet, just download it; it's free.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13420


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:48 am 
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Do we know if there's any chance the pdf will be updated?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:04 am 
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Warden wrote:
Do we know if there's any chance the pdf will be updated?


Updated with what? It was just released.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:22 am 
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Krazma wrote:
Warden wrote:
Do we know if there's any chance the pdf will be updated?


Updated with what? It was just released.

Yes, I guessed it was recent.

Having the errata updated in the pdf sometime.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:48 am 
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I'm sure Columbia Games will eventually reflect the errata in the affected products, but I have no idea about the time frame required for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:05 am 
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Krazma wrote:
I'm sure Columbia Games will eventually reflect the errata in the affected products, but I have no idea about the time frame required for that.


Forever :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:39 am 
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Ok

Thanks for the info


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:01 am 
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If ever a pdf was created primarily for tablets (iPads etc), it was Harnmaster 3ed.

Quite a feat seeing as they weren't out then

It looks great


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