Backstabbing and Insight

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Dan L P
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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#26 Postby Dan L P » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:06 am

MThurston wrote:As in all things a tie goes to the defender.

Assassin rolls Stealth.
Defender rolls Awareness.

Tie goes to the defender but he is not out of the woods.

Initiative test is made if there is a tie.

Attacker is considered to have the initiative.
Attacker over defender roll. Example CS vs MS Ignore defense.

Tie result of MS vs MS then Defender gets half defense.

Defender beats Attacker equals full defense.

It is hard killing people and you should never give the advantage to the Assassin.

It's the reason why really good Assassin's are rare.


So are these the rules from HMG or are these your House Rules?

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#27 Postby MThurston » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:22 pm

These would be house rules.

As for real rules you would have to go to the rule book and everything there says tie goes to the defender.

Attack and defense equal on all charts are defender not injured.

I don't have the rules at work. If I'm hiding and roll a MS and someone is searching and the roll a MS. Do they find me? I'm hiding and I'm the defender. If I try to launch an attack then the other guy is the defender.

So hiding MS vs MS = still hidden?
Ambush MS vs MS = alerted?

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#28 Postby Peter the skald » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:21 am

That seems correct, a higher level of success needed for an attacker win....making merely hiding a bit easier than succesfully ambushing...which seems about right to me.
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#29 Postby Dan L P » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:05 pm

MThurston wrote:These would be house rules.

As for real rules you would have to go to the rule book and everything there says tie goes to the defender.

Attack and defense equal on all charts are defender not injured.

I don't have the rules at work. If I'm hiding and roll a MS and someone is searching and the roll a MS. Do they find me? I'm hiding and I'm the defender. If I try to launch an attack then the other guy is the defender.

So hiding MS vs MS = still hidden?
Ambush MS vs MS = alerted?


As I stated earlier
"Stealth (HM3 Skills 9) said the defender gets a awareness roll only if the attacker rolls a MF."
Now if you are telling me you are playing with HMG and they have changed the rules for Stealth well I guess you might be right, but I'm using HM3.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#30 Postby MThurston » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:12 am

If you are telling me that an assassin moving through a crowd only gives the mark a defense roll on the attackers CF for stealth......then start handing in player characters.

Example:

8 archers in trees all roll MS on hiding. The unleash a round of arrows and your player characters all just took 1 or 2 ignore rolls from arrows?

No spotting check to see the archers or the arrows?

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#31 Postby zrayaan » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:11 am

MThurston wrote:If you are telling me that an assassin moving through a crowd only gives the mark a defense roll on the attackers CF for stealth......then start handing in player characters.

Example:

8 archers in trees all roll MS on hiding. The unleash a round of arrows and your player characters all just took 1 or 2 ignore rolls from arrows?

No spotting check to see the archers or the arrows?


Bad example, since a party really should gave scouts
for just that reason.
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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#32 Postby Peter the skald » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:53 am

With distance attacks one gives awareness roll for attack no?

So they could hide successfully as per rules mentioned, without awareness roll, but defender gets a roll for arrows?

And perhaps this applies to melee as well....the rules quoted allow for attacker roll success orientated hiding...but ambush is hiding plus attack no? Imho a conflicting stealth vs awareness roll is needed to resolve level of surprise.

Otherwise, the alertness, awareness of victim does not come into play....meaning ambushing a deaf and blind man half sleeping is as easy as ambushing a paranoid elf on full alert.... :)
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#33 Postby Dan L P » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:14 am

Peter the skald wrote:With distance attacks one gives awareness roll for attack no?


With distance attacks I would gives an awareness roll for attacks, unless the person was attacked from hiding and from behind (out of the persons peripheral vision) then I would go with the Stealth rules (HM3 Skills 9).

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#34 Postby Brandh Seth » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:22 am

Dan L P wrote:
MThurston wrote:These would be house rules.

As for real rules you would have to go to the rule book and everything there says tie goes to the defender.

Attack and defense equal on all charts are defender not injured.

I don't have the rules at work. If I'm hiding and roll a MS and someone is searching and the roll a MS. Do they find me? I'm hiding and I'm the defender. If I try to launch an attack then the other guy is the defender.

So hiding MS vs MS = still hidden?
Ambush MS vs MS = alerted?


As I stated earlier
"Stealth (HM3 Skills 9) said the defender gets a awareness roll only if the attacker rolls a MF."
Now if you are telling me you are playing with HMG and they have changed the rules for Stealth well I guess you might be right, but I'm using HM3.

You are correct that this is the rule for use of stealth in HM3 but I think it needs some interpretation. The description under Stealth skill states that 'Stealth is tested when a character attempts to move without being detected. It can only be applied in situations where an observer would not automatically see the sneaker.' It also states that 'reasonable cover and/or poor light' are required. I have always used this rule when a character attempts to move and not be seen/heard by others. If however, a character is using stealth to approach another so as to attack them then I would reduce the EML of the stealth check and/or give the potential victim an awareness check. This is an extraordinary use of the stealth skill and should be handled as such.
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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#35 Postby MThurston » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:46 am

I'm moving through the crowd to get into a good position.

Stealth use in this way, to me, is doing something not to be noticed. So my MS vs MS equals me not being noticed.

This is in a crowd. In a room, with the victim having zero distractions this would mean that I'd give the assassin a minus to his stelath. Probably a -40 with this situation. The person being asleep would be a -10 to stealth.

Ms vs MS means the attackers is safe.

Now the kill shot. You roll your stealth, and the victim rolls awareness. MS vs MS means the victim knows the attack is coming unless asleep.

I would also give minuses to the victim if they were being distracted. Someone talking to them on the street. Mage preparing a spell.

Murdering someone on the street shouldn't be as easy as rolling under a 96 with a trained stealther.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#36 Postby Peter the skald » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:24 am

Concur with that....ambush clearly not straight use of stealth, and stalking/hiding imho should be relatively easy for skilled person in good environment...and ambush relatively hard for skilled person, even in right environment. That rule interpretation reflects that.
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#37 Postby Dan L P » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:41 am

I see these are House Rules aimed at protecting PC from assassination. Here is a suggestion tell your PC to stop going around offending NPC so much that they are willing to go out and hunt down an assassin and pay him to hunt down the PC and kill him.
Assassin are people who kill for money or for fanicalical religious reasons.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#38 Postby Peter the skald » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:49 am

Unfortunately house ruling occurs here because not enough information in rules.

Clearly you can house rule that for an ignore attack all you need is a successful stealth roll if you want; but the consensus here is that that is statistically too deadly to represent verisimilitude. But if you think an ignore attack should be more common/likely than I then vive la difference... However, characterising my difference of opinion regarding the ease of ignore attacks/assasination as player centric kindness I think is unfair...:) I would apply the same criterion to NPC's and have no problem killing of pc's :) :)

But let's be clear, hm3 does not give complete guidance on ambush and assassination; merely stealth. The fact that different house rules cover the gap is inevitable; and as shown cater to taste.
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#39 Postby MThurston » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:34 pm

If all I need to do is not roll a MF on a stealth roll, then all the forests in Harn wouldn't have deer.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#40 Postby Dan L P » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:14 am

MThurston wrote:If all I need to do is not roll a MF on a stealth roll, then all the forests in Harn wouldn't have deer.



If you're going to be hunting deers (a highly aware animal with great hearing and sense of smell) in a Harn forest with a range weapon, I assume you going to try and get within short range before you take a shot. I would have you have an EML modifiers for dense forest and Stealth roll every round you try to move closer to the deer. Outside of short range (say from the forest edge at a deer in a meadow) I would have you roll for Stealth with range modifiers.
You could do the same if you're hunting human pray outdoors.
But an assassination attempts is usually up close and by surprise by one or two assassins not out in open country or in a forest.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#41 Postby Peter the skald » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:33 am

Indeed, modifiers and range are a route to go down, could eliminate need for conflicting rolls or taking i to account awareness of target...but...

If the target has a numerically existing level of awareness...why not use it, rather than generalising modifiers , or even specifying modifier bands? I knowit means one more roll though :( :)
Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#42 Postby Turin2 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:05 pm

For the results of ignore, I like the standard HMG Rules (I forget if this is also HM3), where a MS is a 3D attack, and an MS is a 1D attack. For aiming, I like Bill Gant's rules, you can "aim" (adjust the location hit) by up to 30 points if 30 points of EML are spent, on a 1 for 1 basis, and this is after all general location aiming mods are taken into account, i.e. -10 for aiming at the head location.

So with a garrote, one could aim at the neck location with 30 points of aim. Lets assume a base of 60 EML, -10 for the head, and 30 points spent on aiming at the neck, so an effective EML of 20. Anything in the 01-75 range will result in an attack to the neck, with a 20% chance of a 3D or better attack, a 16% chance of a miss (CF) and a 64% chance of a 1D attack.

Being an "expert" with the garrote would help some, but it's still a real good shot at getting a good result. :D

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#43 Postby MThurston » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:10 pm

Dan L P wrote:
MThurston wrote:If all I need to do is not roll a MF on a stealth roll, then all the forests in Harn wouldn't have deer.



If you're going to be hunting deers (a highly aware animal with great hearing and sense of smell) in a Harn forest with a range weapon, I assume you going to try and get within short range before you take a shot. I would have you have an EML modifiers for dense forest and Stealth roll every round you try to move closer to the deer. Outside of short range (say from the forest edge at a deer in a meadow) I would have you roll for Stealth with range modifiers.
You could do the same if you're hunting human pray outdoors.
But an assassination attempts is usually up close and by surprise by one or two assassins not out in open country or in a forest.


But by the rules you only have to roll a Success not to even give the deer a roll. Also by the rules you only roll a stealth per range and not per round. Again, Stealth of 95 equals no deer in the forest.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#44 Postby Dan L P » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:41 pm

But like you I have my own House Rules.
When I decide on how I want to run something I type it up and keep it in my records.
What I put in this thread is for your consideration , whether you use it or not is up to you.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#45 Postby MThurston » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:10 am

Which is why I would allow a role for awareness vs stealth.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#46 Postby Dan L P » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:53 am

MThurston wrote:
But by the rules you only have to roll a Success not to even give the deer a roll. Also by the rules you only roll a stealth per range and not per round. Again, Stealth of 95 equals no deer in the forest.



Just to review my previous posts
Stealth (HM3 Skills 9)
With distance attacks I would gives an awareness roll for attacks, unless the person was attacked from hiding and from behind (out of the persons peripheral vision) then I would go with the Stealth rules (HM3 Skills 9).
If you're going to be hunting deers (a highly aware animal with great hearing and sense of smell) in a Harn forest with a range weapon, I assume you going to try and get within short range before you take a shot.
I would have you have an EML modifiers for dense forest and Stealth roll every round you try to move closer to the deer.
Outside of short range (say from the forest edge at a deer in a meadow) I would have you roll for Stealth with range modifiers.
You could do the same if you're hunting human pray outdoors.

Now as a hunter you're telling me that you are going to circle around a deer in a dense forest just to keep out of his peripheral vision, and what is the peripheral vision of the deer's hearing 360°, along with avoiding the wind direction.
The special penalty to your attack EML in a dense forest, I would reduce it by ½, but the closer you you get to the deer the less the penalty.
Short range for a bow is 20 hex, and to move closer to the deer in stealth mode would cut you're movement down to ½ normal walking speed at least, meaning it’s going to take you a few rounds to cover 20 hexes, and every one of those rounds you would make a Stealth roll.
I would gives an awareness roll for attacks, unless the person or deer was attacked from hiding and from behind (out of the persons or deer's peripheral vision).
Again these are just my House rules.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#47 Postby MThurston » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:30 am

There is no rule on peripheral vision.

I'm reading HM3.01

To stealth you must sneak in a place not automatically detected by the observer.

Behind a short walk or in a hallway.

It does not say that a MS equals no awareness check. Just that failures are detected but MF it can be reasonable to make an opposed check.

Barbarians have a stalking table. On there it says to check stealth per range.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#48 Postby Dan L P » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:28 am

MThurston wrote:There is no rule on peripheral vision.

I'm reading HM3.01

To stealth you must sneak in a place not automatically detected by the observer.

Behind a short walk or in a hallway.

It does not say that a MS equals no awareness check. Just that failures are detected but MF it can be reasonable to make an opposed check.

Barbarians have a stalking table. On there it says to check stealth per range.



STEALTH directly from HM3 Skills 9
“Stealth is tested when a character attempts to move
without being detected. It can only be applied in
situations where an observer would not automatically see
the sneaker. The attempt presumes reasonable cover
and/or poor light. EML is modified for distance to the
target, available cover, etc. Rolling any failure indicates
detection, although with MF it may be reasonable to test
Awareness of potential observers.”

“It can only be applied in situations where an observer would not automatically see the sneaker.”

Peripheral vision is a part of vision that occurs outside the very center of gaze.
Outside of one's vision including the peripheral vision.
Or are you suggesting that everyone on Harn has tunnel vision?
Tunnel vision is the loss of peripheral vision with retention of central vision, resulting in a constricted circular tunnel-like field of vision.

“Rolling any failure indicates detection, although with MF it may be reasonable to test Awareness of potential observers.”

It does not say that a CS or MS equals an awareness check. Just that with MF it may be reasonable to make a test of Awareness of potential observers.

“EML is modified for distance to the target, available cover, etc.”

It doesn't say there is only one check each different range for bows or for the range for a swords?

And I have no idea what you're talking about “Behind a short walk or in a hallway”?
Last edited by Dan L P on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#49 Postby Turin2 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:44 pm

There was a very good fanon article on hunting. This went into depth as to how close the character got to the prey, what stealth/awareness success rolls were needed (or allowed), and what modifications were to be taken into account, such as lighting, weather, up or downwind, etc.

It was very well done, though it's a very old article, not sure if it is still saved anywhere.

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Re: Backstabbing and Insight

#50 Postby MThurston » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:40 pm

A short wall.

Stalking game is like stalking a target for assination.

Roll once per range category with bows and thrown. I'd use thrown ranges for every melee weapon.

It's not easy sneaking up on people.

The rules give no bonus for animals. Their awareness is what it is, no matter where their eyes are located. The DM gives minuses for wind and conditions


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