I wonder whether it would be appropriate to use the lorica segmentata as standard armour for a Thardic legionnaire.
Has anyone tried to develop protection values and weight? I assume it's neither plate nor scale but something in between.

After looking at a few pictures of the stuff on the web, I'd say I'd use the Plate values including the weight, but without the added benefit of any suitable backing except the Subarmalis (Quilt) worn underneath.

_________________
Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies.

IMHO, Roman style 'plate-armor' is too high-tech for Hârn. Iron in Hârn island is far more expensive and rarer than in Roman. But, maybe Thardic army commander could have imported it from mainland.

In Battlelust there's listed Hârnic armies with their armors:

The Thardic Rebublic army

Medium Horse
Patrician (knight or squire)

Ring or scale + leather
Lance, Broadsword, Kite Shield and Handaxe

Medium Foot
Legionnaire

Ring or scale + leather
Spear, Tower Shield and Shortsword

Light Foot
Legionnaire

Leather + cloth
Spear, Tower Shield and Shortsword

Shortbow
Legionnaire

Leather + cloth
Shortbow, Tower Shield and Shortsword

Unarmoured Foot
Militia

No armor
Spear and Roundshield

The Thardic Rebublic army of six legions and the Red Guard have a total full-time strenght of 1160 foot and 380 cavalry (knights). Reserves of approximately 4500 foot and 820 knights also exist, one quarter of whom will be on three month active duty at ny time. The Thardic Rebublic has the largest body of full time trained troops on Hârn.

Hope this helps.

AFAIK the lorica segmentata needs less iron than scale or mail and is quicker to produce if you know how.
Since Lythia's 720 TR roughly equals terra's 1066 or later, the technique to produce l.s. should be known on the continent and probably even on Hârn.

I'm not sure about the technology not being present. None of the metal pieces I saw were all that big, but there has got to be some explaination as to why that armour wasn't seen in medieval Europe. Scarcity of that much iron could be a possibility, but I would think that that would only serve to drive up the price. The Romans didn't have to fight one another, so they only had to defend themselves against the lower quality weapons of the barbarian population, at least until the later half of the 4th Century. Maybe those tied together pieces of metal would stand up to the weapons of the medieval knight?

_________________
Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies.

One internet article mentioned that the l.s. was probably a reaction to the fighting style of the celts (longswords used for slashing at the head and shoulders of the opponent).
Still, I don't understand why medieval knights did not wear the l.s. (probably with mail attachments)if it was as good as it is written.

I would look more to the byzantine (eastern roman) legions to get a flavour for armour, it is more closer to harnic

mail byrnies and plate helms

However I do believe that if they wanted to , they could make the roman plate armour, there is no technological reason they couldnt, especially as there are breastplates etc on harn, the main factor would be costs, but Tharda could do that if they wanted. I like the idea of using alot of 'Roman' cultural influences for tharda

Me too. And I'd like to see my players faces when they see a huge mass of infantry advancing, all covered with metal armour...

"These aren't just a band of common foot soldiers. These are Thardic legionnaires. Their armour is thick and their shields are broad....."

The easiest way to duplicate them is just to have plate covering as
per breastplate, but add both shoulders and upper arms.

They would have to have quilt or leather underneath.

or perhaps you could do a harnic variant of lorica segmentata

instead od the plates, just have a breast and backplate with plate shoulder covering (paldrons i think)

Mm, yes. With Azeryan standing in for Rome, I like to portray the Corani "empire" as a client state/copycat of the greater empire. Azeryan never occupied any part of Hârn but they used to have Trierzon which should put them within reasonable sailing distance of the mouth of the Thard river, so traders and missionaries and people needing "a change of climate for health reasons" could bypass Melderyn to get there. This makes sense if you look at the timeline; the period when Trierzon was under Azeryan nearly coincides with the time of the Corani empire, but after those northwestern provinces were lost the Corani empire also went into decline. Also it can explain the relative popularity of "foreign" gods such as Agrik and Morgath in western Hârn. Obviously Tharda has again inherited most of this influence from the Corani empire.

Lorica segmentata ("Segmented harness") was essentially plate armor. It's not too high-tech for any iron-working, armor-producing culture. But it's a bit complicated to make (self-carrying with lots of straps and stuff). This might be one reason for a Harnic armorer not to produce this kind of plate, even if he was familiar with the technology. I would assume the lorica segmentata to be more expensive compared to normal plate, too.

When used in the field (and during a campaign), lorica segmentata has one major setback: it needs a lot of maintenance. Regular plate armor is made of large, smooth surfaces easy to wipe clean of dirt and moisture. Chainmail keeps itself clean just by wearing (because of the movement of the rings against each other). Lorica segmentata, on the contrary, has to be cleaned up plate by plate, possibly removing some plates from the whole and jointing them back again. The upkeep also requires more skill in leather-working, because of the many straps.

In the tumultous times of the late Roman empire there supposedly rose a need for simple, yet efficient equipment, as the ability to produce and maintenance "high-tech" equipment deterioriated in the constant civil wars. (Yes, Durgil, the Romans fought each other at least as often as non-Romans!). This, I've understood, is the modern historians' and archeologists' explanation to the disappearance of lorica segmentata in the 3rd century AD. The same reason probably applies to medieval times, too.

Even if the middle-ages didn't see the use of lorica segmentata, there were still many similar developments in the later middle ages and renaissance: self-carrying armor made of hand-sized, interlapping plates joined together with leather straps.

But this kind of armor was never designed for knights, it was essentially a footmens armor, who needed the ability of movement more than a knight sitting on a horse. Interlapping plates give way when hit by a concentrated force of a lance: if the plate doesn't get pierced, it will still leave a bruise. Against this kind of damage the Romans already developed a kind of full plate for heavy cavalrymen (clibanarii and kataphraktoi).

And leaving the weapon-technology for a moment: for a medieval knight his armor was a status symbol, too. And status-symbols don't change very fast, even if their technological effectiveness deteriorates. This is why some European knights wore full plate well into the 17th century, even if it was easily pierced by muskets in close range.

Thamias:
One internet article mentioned that the l.s. was probably a reaction to the fighting style of the celts (longswords used for slashing at the head and shoulders of the opponent).

Very possible. The Romans accuired many aspects of their armor and weaponry from celts (heavy helmets, long spears and swords, possibly even the pilum-type javelins). One could ask if the Thardic legions face this kind of opponents at all. I think they don't, so they will manage with cheaper and lighter armor, easier to maintain.

-ILE

Welcome to the HarnForum, Ilkka. A post of that quality is a helluva way to introduce yourself.

Here's hoping for many more like that one.

_________________
http://www.penultimateharn.com

Thanks Ilkka! Very useful information. And very convincing. So the lorica segmentata should probably be reserved for Azerian elite troops. Thardans are not likely to have some.

I think I'll equip my Thardic MF with scale. That's fairly Roman too and it's possible on Hârn.

Check out the download section for Armour details on my website "We Who Dare"...

http://www.geocities.com/rtepaiho/harn/wwd/wwd.html

I decided to go for a more feudal feel on armour for the legions keeping in mind that standing armies were not generally equipped to "the max". Note that the data in the tables is for the Hero System 4th edition rules, but you should get the idea...

Cheers

Ray

_________________
Keep It Fun

Ray

Liked what you've done with the Thardic legionnaire, kiwi2. The armour you have given to the normal ranker resembles very much the armour of a Byzantine footman-levy around 8th-10th C. And that's just what I think the Thardans can afford for their ordinary legionnaires. Well, an individual heavy legionnaire would probably have some metal also, but seldom when just enlisted.

For your - or anybody else's - overall description of Thardan army I'm not so happy. The Thardan army (as well as the society as a whole) is a bit hard to "get into", as it resembles neither medieval or imperial Roman armies.

I think that before drawing analogies one should dwell deep in the armies of the late imperial Romans 4th-6th C, the Byzantines of 8th-12th C, the Greeks and Romans of 7th-3rd C BC and the Swiss of the late middle ages.

These societies share the elements of infantry, local recruiting, short-comings in military funding and an almost constant struggle for survival. They have both local, non-active troops as well as paid standing units. Not counting the Swiss, they also have nobility serving as (mostly heavy-armed) cavalry. There is the mish-mash of locality and general unity one would except also from the Thardans.

Hmm... quitting for now, but if anybody want's to discuss this, I'm eager...

And about the lorica segmentata: if you haven't done it alredy, search the web with this entry. Some crap, but mainly lovely data and some pic's too. See for example:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

and:

http://www.loricasegmentata.org

There was somewhere a very nice drawing of the thing by a respected military archeologist, but I can't locate it anymore...

-ILE

For lots of details on Roman Armies try

http://webpages.charter.net/brueggeman/

Scott

Please remember that a large fraction of the Thardic Legions is self equiped. The "land tax" feature of legion recruiting means that clans provide soldiers to the Republic based on their holdings. These legionaires are to be provided with their equipment, including horses for the knights and the light cavalry. Medium foot and shortbow are recruited in this way and some light foot. The only people who are outfitted by the legions are those who volunteer, mostly the children of the very poor, who are, mainly, outfitted as light foot according to the Tharda module.

There will therefore be some variation in equipment of troops of the same troop class and also some minimum standard of equipment which the legionaire must meet to fulfil the clan's "land tax" obligation. The troop class(es) which a clan must provide are based on the amount of their holdings. While the module is not wholly clear, it appears that large clans with large land holdings would be responsible to provide a mumber of legionaires of different troop types.

Example:

Nordaka holds 21,500 acres.

1200 + acres = 1 knight Nodaka provides 17 knights.

17 X 1200 = 20,400, Remainder 1,100 acres

600+ acres = 1 light cavalryman Nordaka provides 1 light cavalryman.

1,100 acres - 600 acres = 500 acres

300+ acres = one foot soldier (ambiguous, apparently either MF or SB?)

Nordaka provides one footsoldier.

500 acres - 300 acres =200 acres

Nordaka pays 1d/year/acre or 200d/year.

This would ensure that the largest holders would be heavily represented among the Thardic knights, from whom the command of the legions is drawn. It might also mean that some clans who do not have a large number of service age men in some generation would have to look to their client families to find substitutes as scutage is, apparently, not an option.

Reference Tharda 7. Any one see how it could work any other way, based on the numbers of legionaires given in Tharda and Battlelust and the system as outlined in Tharda?

Wm

Hey guys.

I've answered a few of these questions before.
Check out the FAQ on my site for details:
http://www.ketherian.org/paxtharda/thardex/questions.htm

My version (thanks to Jonathan M Davidson and others) of the Thardic Legion can be found here:
http://www.ketherian.org/paxtharda/gm_stuff/legion/index.html

Ilkka Leskelä is absoluely right in being unhappy with the comparison between Tharda and Rome. It just doesn't work. My players like to think of Tharda as follows:

* Take all the tales you've ever heard of Azerian
* Apply them to the left-over remains of a dying empire that's quickly loosing ground to an upstart barbarian.
* Add a heafty dose of hear-say and corruption, but somehow keep the society functioning.

I like to think of Tharda as a xerox copy of Rome.
You know, smaller -- less clear, grey and fuzzy around the edges.

Seriously though, Tharda would be better compaired to an Italian city state of the 13th C than Rome -- but I prefer the feel of the latter.

I never delt with lorica segmenta. Instead I went with Jonathan's suggestion and had people wear scale male with the occasional rondel on their chests--more for identification than armor. Plate is heavy, hard to keep clean and expensive. IMC most knights might wear a bit of plate (not much, just the occasional guard or chest plate) but it is exceedingly rare on the battlefield.

Hope this helps.
If anyone wants to add a question to my FAQ, please send it along.

_________________
Rebecca Downey
ketherian@gmail.com

This is slightly off-topic and would propably be better posted to the Concordat but here goes.

Has anyone tried to come up with armour values for lamellar armour?
Few pictures i have seen suggest that there is no cloth or leather backing and the lamels are tied to each other. Simple way would be to take away leather values from scale but this would leave IMHO too weak values. AFAIK lamellar should have equal edge and point protection and slightly better blunt protection than mail armour. As for weight I have not been able to dig much info and I would appreciate if someone could enlighten me on the subject.

IIRC lamellar was in use in imperial roman legions (lorica squamata) and widely used in Byzantine. And if the Azeryani empire is somewhat analogous to Byzantium I would expect to see lamellar in widespread use in Azeryan and some samples among those who trade with them, namely Ivinians. I would not consider it totally out of place in Harn either, if it is in the hands of some widely travelled Ivinians or imported from the mainland.

This could be an option for equipping azeryan (and thardic) legionaries with gleaming (and easily "mass" produced) metal armour if you don't want to go with segmentata plate armour.

Greetings, Humble peasant!

Here's what I know about lamella in RW:

Lamellar is made of small metal-plates riveted on a cloth/leather backing. I've seen once a 17th C lamellar from India without the leather backing, where the lamels were riveted to each other, rows of ringmail in between giving some freedom of movement to the wearer. But all other examples of lamellar I've seen have been on a cloth/leather backing. Thus I'd say lamellar has very similar values to scale, maybe with slightly better protection and slightly greater weight.

[I see some confusion with the Roman terminology for armour in your mail...

lorica segmentata is essentially plate armour
lorica hamata is ringmail
lorica squamata is scalemail (on leather backing)
lorica plumata is scalemail on ringmail backing (!)]

Lamellar was used by the late Roman army as well as the Byzantines, though I'm not sure what they called it. I believe the idea originated in the East (India, China...) and was transported to the West by Persians and the nomads of the Southern Russian steppe (Avars, Huns, Goths). The Romans adopted lamellar from their enemies especially as a cavalry armour during the 2nd and 3rd C.

As the later Roman and Byzantine armies were increasingly composed of heavy cavalry, lamellar was widely used. It was also used by all the riding barbarians who entered Roman territory between the 3rd and 8th C (Goths, Langobards...). Pieces of armour made in similar manner are known through the middle ages, too, even if ringmail and later plate predominated.

Full suit of lamellar was probably too heavy (and expensive) for footmen, which would explain the connection of lamellar with cavalry.

Thus your ideas about who might wear lamellar in Harn/Lythia sound very good to me. Though for Thardic legionnaires I think that lamellar, like lorica segmentata, is a bit too heavy and far too expensive. Even for the heavy footmen. But for individual veterans, yes; for cavalry knights, definitely.

-ILE

Greetings, Humble peasant!

Greetings Ilkka.

Here's what I know about lamella in RW:...SNIP


I bow to your superior knowledge. I just got the impression that it wasn't leather backed by this picture http://www.regia.org/images/Jorvik99082.jpg
And some articles I red in the silk road designs armoury page.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/page6.html

Sorry for the edit but here is a sample of the lamellar I meant.
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/squamata.html
Just scroll downwards and there is an authentic(?) example.

btw. Can you give a recommendation on good books about various armours. The internet sources vary wildly in quality and rarely give their sources.


I see some confusion with the Roman terminology for armour in your mail...

I humbly stand corrected as I know next to nothing of roman army terms and the "squamata" was produced by a quick google search. I'll have to loot your library when I get the chance.

Ketherian, I beg to differ. The model of the Thardic Legions to which you refer us presumes that Tharda is in some sense "feudal" and that the obligations of the magnates to the state are in some sense like the responsibility of fealty in a normal kingdom.

I cannot find any reading of the Tharda module which supports this. Land in Tharda is owned not held for fealty and service.

That being said, there are no serfs in Tharda. Chattle slavery is legal but the canon makes it clear that they constitute a very small fraction of the population. Perhaps 95% of the population of Tharda are "free citizens" of the Republic. They have clans and those clans have clients and patrons and clients may change patrons at will if the new patron is willing to enter into the relationship and all outstanding debts to the old patron are settled.

The Tharda module makes it clear that it is not uncommon for a client clan to have more than one patron clan, as a client clan has members who farm as tenants land owned by two or more other clans. The client clan might also have members who farm land they own themselves or even own land which they rent to others who are in turn their clients. These clients in turn might be patrons to someone else. Not neat. A mess in fact. Which is why I love Tharda so.

Wm

I think this is just reinforced scale; scale with a Medial ridge, a kind of crease or fold down the center of each scale. That's were the name comes from, the scales look like feathers.