Baronets and the Gentry for review.

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MDMann
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Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#1 Post by MDMann » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:02 pm

Hi all

I have two short articles ready for review for the interested. I've polished them up. If anyone is interested in giving feedback before I send them to Peter please pm me your email address. I'm looking to send these in next week so am after a fairly quick turnaround unless there's something major found. It's fairly high level stuff I'm after for review though I'll gladly accept any thoughts or something more detailed. Thanks.

The first is on the gentry and describes those rich commoners (often descended from knights unable to maintain the trappings of knighthood, particularly bastards of nobility). This is ready to go and is 2 pages (currently).

The second is on baronets. Those rich knights holding multiple manors who can afford to knight all their immediate family and could raise or maintain a company of foot and squadron of knights at need (but not obligation). It lists each of the baronetcies of the feudal kingdoms and is currently 6 pages long. I'm still polishing it but the analysis is complete and it will be good to go in the next day or two. There are about a score of baronets in Kaldor and a dozen or so in each of the other kingdoms except Chybisia which is too small to support them. I've not checked Habe in Azadmere yet, but don't expect to find any. My calculations on the wealth of each clan take account of acres held and LQ but ignore FI (which we don't hold data for) and TI, which could be derived but hasn't been. If anyone cares to let me know the TI for the relevant manors that would be great. If these were used it's likely to increase the numbers of baronets by around a half dozen in each realm except Kaldor where they're likely to increase by a dozen or so.

These are both unofficial titles, which whilst commonly used and referred to have no legal basis or standing.
Per Sir Veer.

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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#2 Post by MDMann » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:07 pm

Hi all

The baronets article is good for review at 4 pages. It's got some interesting stuff though I'm not entirely happy with the layout. If anyone is interested just pm me your email and I'll send over a copy. I should hey both of these to Peter next week after reviews.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#3 Post by joseph_mccallum » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:15 am

I'm quite sure they will be most welcome, I for one look forward to seeing both and utilising them in my pHarn. :)

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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#4 Post by MDMann » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:49 am

Thanks! I'm actually getting some half written articles off my shelf, so to speak, and sending them out there! Wonders never cease. 8O
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#5 Post by Leitchy » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:29 am

I'm happy to provide my idea of editing and layout too.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#6 Post by MDMann » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:27 pm

Thanks. I'll take you up on that.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#7 Post by Dogberry » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:56 pm

Knights, Baronets talking about the rich gentry:
"They're either nouveau riche parvenus trying to weasel their way into places they aren't wanted, or they are scions of noble houses trying to cling to status they no longer deserve. Bloody uppity folk, either way."
Barons and other nobility talking about the 'Baronets':
"Just because they have some land and money, more than most knights, they seem to think they are noble! Bloody uppity knights is all they are."
Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#8 Post by MDMann » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:22 pm

Thanks! I might just pinch those!

I don't mention it, but whilst there are far fewer gentry than knights (and fewer baronets than either) the rate of increase for gentry is greater than the other two as it depends more on labour availability than fiefs and is less risky and cheaper to found (though holding on to them in famine and war is harder too).
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#9 Post by phderiksson » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Most likly already considered by you. But a mayor career for the gentry (descendents of the landed knights) beside that of the church and army. Would be in a position of the royal (or baronet) households/wardrobe/exchequer, working as steward, bailiff, chamberlain, clerk, usher, yeoman, escheater, coroner, treasurer, collector, controller, warden, forester etc. Maybee give a short explanation to the duties involved with the position. Something similar to that given in Harnmanor for the reeve and beadle.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#10 Post by MDMann » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:33 pm

Hi Jan

I've not really gone into gentry occupations, since my definition includes them not having to work.

That said, I've mentioned them joining up or volunteering during a general call up and joining the fighting order's. I could certainly see them joining the church proper.

Bailiffs, stewards, coroner's and wardens are all knightly positions that they don't qualify for. Coroner's don't exist yet on Harn, though the conditions for thier creation are ideal in Kaldor, Kanday and possibly Melderyn. I've got them.existing among the Yeomanry and they should exist among the foresters. They could be a good source of chamberlains. Clerks are guilded professions and I don't see them going that route as it would be a big social faux pas. The others I'm not sure on.

Thanks.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#11 Post by phderiksson » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:17 am

MDMann wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:33 pm
I've not really gone into gentry occupations, since my definition includes them not having to work.
Yes I agree with above statement, the very definition of a gentleman (gentry) is that he does not toil. Instead he have time for leasure, politics and to become educated in the arts. As far as I understand it, during the early medieval time, the church was the formal place where reading, writing and arithmetics were taught. A younger son or bastards without any opportunity to inherit a manor might well be sent to the church to learn these skills. Since the crown needed educated person at court they most likly recruited gentry from the clergy. A second advantage of gentry without ties to the land is that they are tightly dependent on the kings fortune. Whether a clerk has to labor hard I think depend on his relative position. A high clerk (gentry), could very well delegate much of the administrative work to a lesser clerk. Similar, beside the chamberlain there are many chief officials below knights, like yeoman ushers, purveyors, harbingers, etc. that might well need some aristocracy background. The statues of being attached to the court i believe far outweights the fact that some labor had to be performed. It is not real toil anyway, is it?
MDMann wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:33 pm
Bailiffs, stewards, coroner's and wardens are all knightly positions that they don't qualify for.
Indeed, to qualify for such positions the king demanded security for doing a good job. A sheriff that failed to deliver cash to the exchequer could be distrained.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#12 Post by rvonsteinman » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:11 am

I would throw into this mix that gentry can also become leaders of mercenary bands as well. There is some evidence that John Hawkwood may have been from the gentry.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#13 Post by Rothesay » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:56 pm

rvonsteinman wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:11 am
There is some evidence that John Hawkwood may have been from the gentry.
Well, he was Sir John. :wink:

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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#14 Post by rvonsteinman » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:55 pm

Rothesay wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:56 pm
rvonsteinman wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:11 am
There is some evidence that John Hawkwood may have been from the gentry.
Well, he was Sir John. :wink:
8O That may be debatable.
Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#15 Post by Rothesay » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:28 pm

rvonsteinman wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:55 pm
Rothesay wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:56 pm
rvonsteinman wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:11 am
There is some evidence that John Hawkwood may have been from the gentry.
Well, he was Sir John. :wink:
8O That may be debatable.
Indeed it might be. That he was a thug is not, of course. :D

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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#16 Post by MDMann » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:05 pm

Thanks. I've mentioned that they are a good source of mercenaries.
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Re: Baronets and the Gentry for review.

#17 Post by rvonsteinman » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:21 am

Rothesay wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:28 pm
Indeed it might be. That he was a thug is not, of course. :D
Indeed he was brutal and clever, too.
Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

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