Glad you see it that way. Anywhere from 25,000 to 200,000 depending on what sources you believed were killed in that raid, though the 25,000 is probably closer to the truth.

But 50,000 were killed in a fire bombing of Hamburg - and the highest total was 500,000 during incediary attacks upon Japan, the largest single death toll being 100,000 in a raid on Tokyo.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Which is why Turin, that I stated that evil (at least acts) exists. If we are ever to evolve beyond our present state, we need to recognize horrendous actions against humanity/sapient beings as something to avoid if at all possible. Otherwise we are just smart animals who have embraced the concept of kill or be killed as the only possibility. Honestly I hope we are better than the Agrikans...

... but of course I'm an optimist...

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...and I'm not dead yet...

Well, I think "evil" as defined exists in every society, whether acted out by individuals or acted out by groups under the direction of others. I wonder how it would have went for a USAF pilot who refused to drop incendiaries on Japan for instance?

"Following orders" is tough not to do, and in many cases could ruin a career at least, being declared a traitor, executed, imprisoned are also possibilities.

My grandfather spoke out against Hitler in WWII - he was taken away, came back a few weeks later. He was lucky, my grandmother thought he was dead.

But IMO pretty well every society and religion in respect to Harn has it's "evil", or at least corruptness. The Laranian Soloran crusade for one. And I'm sure there would be many Laranian priest who are horribly corrupt.

Maybe the Peonians buck this rule, but I'm sure even the followers of Siem could find murder OK if it was "serving the need of the many".

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Well, if nothing this thread has highlighted that not merely different societies, different individuals hold views on what evil is. Not surprising really. So definitions of evil exist all over the shop. I am not sure if anyone does not have a definition of evil. Even paedophile murderers.

I think these individual differences are infinitely more diffuse and powerful than attributed 'views of evil' such as 'American evil' or 'German evil' or 'Afghani evil' as, well, the latter shoehorn the diffuse individuals into false unity. Even if you shave down further and say 'fundamentalist American, Nazi, or Taliban' and get more of an agreed view of evil, I bet you still have considerable disagreement between individuals within. I do believe the religious leaders of Iran are contantly bickering over the issue And lets not get into the schism of christianity

IMHO desiring a defintion of evil is the search for easy personal didactic answers where there are none; and philsophic reflection on the reality of unassailable difference whilst more difficult; is ultimately more satisfying....

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Peonian's IMC, as the most moral, are the most likely to prosecute witches - not as a church-wide policy but as activist individuals. Witch burnings are not limited to the church of Peoni of course.

As I understand it followers of Seim have no problem with killing gargun and at least one Sindarin hero was celebrated in song for trying to kill the Necromancer Nederi. There was a long war against invading humans and there are those from the war that would support a genocidal campaign if necessary to wipe the humans off of Harn (most of those are Morsindarin but many Sindarin would be sympathetic to the idea).

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

The question is, what does it actually mean for a peonian religious tribunal to "prosecute" a witch?
Orthodox Peonism definitely rules out killing anyone, including agricans, navehans, peonian heretics and all kind of witches. Obviously, there may be some more or less heretic groups legitimizing all kinds of fatal physical punishment for offenders (like those fanatics at Dunir), but the origin of these mislead factions is usually quite secular: getting rid of hated suppressors, etc. The "theological background" is usually constructed to suit the political agenda, even if it may unfold in some way later.

So, I prefer to stay with a peaceful "mainstream" peonianism...

Most likely, penalties might include some kind of religious brainwash, physical labour, social penalties, excommunication, exile, physical punishments (beatings, whipping), but no deadly force. Dangerous individuals may be imprisoned.

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

Look to the witchhunts in the late middle-ages/early modern era. The inquisition did just what the name said: inquire and find proof of the accusation. After that, the culprit was handed over to the worldly arm which executed the sentence. No killing involved on the part of the church.
I guess the role of the worldly arm could be filled by the Laranian church, if not by the nobility.

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

Yes, it could. And in some cases, they will do so even in my p-Hârn. But Peonian clergy is very different from Terran Christian clergy: First of all less politically involved. While this helps them to live their ideal of a simple life (no money, no real power), it also allows them to be "different", say peaceful and (almost) all-forgiving, believing in the "good" of mankind etc. Imagine idealistic franciscan monks - that's near to Peonism!

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

Contrary to the above (some, rare) Peonians IMC do carry out lethal sentences against witches when allowed by secular authorities (death qualifying as a "permanent harm to offenders"). Witch burnings/drowning, baskets of burning cats, etc. These may be exceptions to the general rule of the Peonian church policy and only in extreme individuals - but not actively opposed by the upper church hierarchy.

An exception from general principles, perhaps not unlike the Laraniian Solari crusade for the Laranian church.

It is, after all, for the good of their souls in the afterlife and the protection of all good people from evil magics.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Who are these 'witches' that are being prosecuted and executed? Is it all just hysteria and misconception, or are we talking about actual evil cultists? You can argue moral relativism all you like, but I'd be on the side of anyone burning Morgathians at the stake.

'Master of the Principle of Evil'

...a name given to them by uptight Laranian zealots. Just sayin'.

I don't think "allowed" is quite the right term. No church on Harn has the explicit authority to conduct trials and executions of ordinary people, except on church property to church serfs (in which case they are acting just like lords on a manor). Perhaps, "turn a blind eye" might be a better description.



Well, witchcraft is simply the "casting of inimical spells", so legally it isn't much different than assault, except the punishments are usually harsher because the idea scares the s*** out of people. Now, how many "witches" are just scapegoats for the rash of miscarriages in the village this year, the victims of hallucinations and tremors caused by ergot poisoning, or the contrived deus ex machina for a rescue adventure - that's definitely a p-Harn thing. And so is the number of real witches.

IMpH, witchcraft trials are uncommon, and the GoAL and some of the churches work to make sure that's the case. I think the Peonians are quite afraid of witch hysterias - as healers, they are the first to be suspected. Laranians and Agrikans are also somewhat motivated to keep the whole pitchforks-and-torches scene from happening.

(IRL, the Medieval Church discouraged witch trials, and the era of burning witches came with the Protestant Reformation, when the Church was weak and religious leaders were at each others throats.)

And I don't think that anyone disagrees that Morgathians are stake-worthy. I think the only point is that for Morgathianism to be credible, Morgathians must be able to perceive themselves as good. Only an ass would argue that the Khmer Rouge was not evil, but it is possible to understand the internal logic of the regime and why its members thought that they were doing right.

The Khmer Rouge are a good example of an undeniably evil movement that saw itself as 'good.' In my p-Harn religion thread, I offered a suggestion that Balsha's heresy could have been a 'leveling' movement, a kind of religious militant communism. Jan of Leiden! *

As for the real world history of witchcraft, I agree with you. There was a big shift between the earlier understanding of witchcraft as the crime of 'malefica' and the later model of 'treason against God.' The former is simply using magic to harm people or property, as you have noted. The later 'treason against God/worship of Satan to gain actual magic powers' model was at variance with earlier authoritative rulings and teachings. You are also correct that Protestants carried out a lot of witch trials.


The worship of Morgath is proscribed in most kingdoms, right? Is death the common penalty, or are they simply exiled?

*
I was briefly in Munster this past summer. I regret not seeing the cages where Jan and his buddies were displayed after their richly deserved ends. 3 AM with only a couple of hours to spare before your train arrives is not the best time to go looking for the cathedral.