In regards to a Kaldor Port at the Tuleme Falls, I do have a few thoughts.

To the best of my knowledge, the Sindarin had no malice towards the Kingdom of Lylan (Pre-Lothrim petty kingdom). And barbarians or not, I seriously doubt the Sindarin see the Pagaelin as an improvement, with or without the Navehen influence.

If anything, the Sindarin seem to be rock solid isolationist, so long as the humans on their bordors respect the border. They don’t seem to have any interest if one group of humans replaces another, or conquors another, etc.

I think a very very solid case can be made that the Evael will be a 100% non-player in efforts to help, or to hinder, a Kaldoric port.

Having said that, if a GM wants to throw an elvish wrench into the works, all he has to do is have the Sindarin in his world believe, for whatever reason, that they don’t want any of the human Harnic states that close to them. Perhaps they changed their minds, and decide to be more involved in such things (which would no doubt lead to some withering comments from the Khuzan about elvish timing…..)

I simply don’t see Melderyn being ‘directly’ involved, but I do believe Melderyn would prefer a more ‘contained’ Kaldor. As for Chybisa, a Kaldoric port would be an unmitigated disaster. The Genin train WOULD lose some of its trade. Even if the Genin trail retained a respectable flow of goods and wealth, it would shrink at least some, probably by a significant margin.

The only real obstacles are the Pagaelin, and the internal will of Kaldor to do it (I could readily see Melderyn trying influence Kaldor’s internal will to do it).

Given the nature of the Pagaelin, nothing short of a very ugly campaign would so much as dent them. At best, the Pagaelin could be ‘pushed’ out of the area, but this would result in more tribes trying live in a smaller territory, and thus a tighter food supply, and thus more raids.

While a good case can be made for killing off any adult male Pagaelin, both Laranian and Peonian moralty pretty much demand the granting of quarter, which it is a 100% sure thing that the Pagaelin would regularly abuse.

That quarter would eventually stop being offered (and for good reason) is a given. The only remaining question is what would happen to the Pagaelin women and children. In Terran terms, at best you are looking at a generation or three disfunctional families, although some heavy Peonian missionary involvement with ‘liberated’ Pagaelin women and children might help.

A firmly waged genocide against the Pagaelin, or at least the ones in the area, would probably be most effective, and most simple, but would include a different kind of serious cost.

I think there is sufficient demand for a port on Lake Benath. Firstly Tharda is not that organised/centralised, there are a lot of factions at all levels competing for political and/or economic advantage from their competitors.

My take on the trade would not be travelling down the Thard, but terminating at Shiran or possibly Firis and selling to local mercantylers.

I don’t see it as a heavily organised enterprise. The trade would likely start quite small and not overly organised initially. Perhaps one individual mercantyler, a coastal sized vessel (possibly registered in Tharda), a small crew and a very basic trading post on the eastern shore of Lake Benath with a trail through Messlyneshire to Tashal. The trade destination would be with Shiran or perhaps Firis.

Local mercantylers would profit; being able to access trade goods all year round and being able to transport these goods faster and cheaper the annual salt route caravan. This means these local mercantylers could significantly undercut their rivals on the regular salt route caravans. This means that trade goods would likely be considerable cheaper for consumers and become significantly more available (not being restricted to once a year). As trade goods are often luxury goods, this means the Upper Elite are likely to be the biggest benefactors.

The increases the local income and trade which will make local authorities happy.
Trade over Lake Benath would grow steadily and gradually, taking several years to majorly impact regional trade. I suspect that by the time trade have grown enough for the senate to be generally aware of it and for it to become a political issue, it would be too late to roll things back. Plus there would be plenty of people profiting enough to use whatever means at their disposal to keep the trade flourishing.

The most likely destination would be Shiran, which would then become a regional trading centre, most likely at the expense of Moleryn and perhaps Coranen. From Shiran thardic merchants could transport goods wherever either down the Thard river to Coranan and Golotha or overland throughout Tharda and beyond.

What constitutes a port in the medieval era in a world like Harn?

Would Kaldor need more than a single sea dock for the first couple of years? (It would take time for the existence of the port to become general knowledge. Once it was common knowledge how many ships regularly pass the potential port in a normal trading season?).

Would Kaldor need more than 3 or 4 sea docks after a decade or two due to the limited number of ships?

The cost of transporting goods via the Kald river barges and overland caravans or peddlers. While it is generally cheaper to ship goods by water in comparison to overland that is not true if transporting goods overlands negates most of the taxes and fees incurred via goods transported by the Kald river barges.

For me the standard is a single sea dock capable of securing sea going vessels (ships) to facilitate the transfer of the cheaper bulkier and or heavier trade goods like wheat, wool, oil, wine and other liquids in quantity while minimizing manpower and cargo losses compared to transferring goods with small boats (rocking in the waves) to a ship anchored off shore.

A key point is that a port is also all the infrasturcture that supports it which is one reason it so hard to build a port. Without the infrastructure to support it the port will fail.

A minor port requires very little infrastructure basically the sea dock, a grain silo and a warehouse, and generally some kind of modest fortifications (an ounce of prevention is usually worth a pound of cure). Possibly a trade offficial and a local trading representative or factor to oversee the local surplus trading goods.

A single sea dock can tie up two ships and possibly more in a pinch. Unless thereis an awful lot of ship trade few start up ports will need more than a single dock for several or more years until trade is grown and a market for goods is established.

Each port should become a minor local trading hub as other surrounding manors bring their excess goods to the port for trade and transport to other parts where the goods are in demand.

For the first few years after a port is established it shouldn’t require that many ships laying over to drop off a few goods, replenish ship stores and pick up some additional cargo (probably small cargos of wheat or grain or bales of wool or jugs of olive oil which can sit in a grain silo or warehouse for prolonged periods until they are needed).

Depending on the Harn ships can be tied up alongside another ship with goods brought across the other vessel if a vessel has reason to be docked for a lengthy period instead of out sailing and generating income.

I think Kaldor could slowly grow a small port town with several or more docks and regular sea trade over a decade or so rather inexpensively along the lines of immigration and developing one a 10 L Tower manor with a single sea dock, warehouse and grain silo.

There are a lot of factors to consider. Ships are expensive to build, purchase and operate so there should not be bunches of them in pirate hands particularly the best of breed. Doubtful the majority sail around major harbors with navies that patrol their waters.

It’s only 160 miles from Tashal to the eastern shore of Harn which falls under the shipping radius of Thay versus 225 miles between Tashal and Thay.

Each person’s Harn determines exactly how much more dangerous those 80 or so miles beyond the borders of Kaldor are or if there are not at least 3 – 6 safe layover points (Forts, Manors or Abbeys).

IMO shipping should be relatively safe within a 100 – 200 mile radius of the city of Thay.

I find it odd that there are not ambitious Franchised or Free or Manorial Lords with Bonded Master Mercantylers along the eastern coast of Harn who are not making at least one or two caravan trips to Tashal with valuable rare goods each year.

Even a few small or very small caravans with extra guards zig zagging between local manors or avoiding them entirely could be very lucrative. Possibly it’s not in their best interests to take things up another degree or two due to the diminishing cost of return to expenditures and infrastructure. Purchasing additional mounts to transport the goods and feed them each year is a significant cost. Things begin spiraling. Bulkier goods require more mounts and more men to tend them along with additional guards which returns less profit.

We might be currently at the sweet point. Eastern Mercantylers receive better prices for rare and scarce goods in limited quantites sufficient to meet the current demands of Tashal nobility and other wealthy customers. Less profitable goods travel from Thay to Tashal.

Doubling the supply of rare goods doesn’t necessarily double the demand of customers capable and willing to pay for those same goods at the same prices.

No port is actually necessary just a manor with a small dock comparable to Jedes.

IMO it is really hard to believe there are not several bays or coves capable of harboring seagoing vessels along a 100 mile stretch of coast line and a dozen or more suitable for launching and docking small boats (Under 40 feet) not counting additional coves for smaller boats in the 20′ – 30′ range .

Cargo could be rather easily transported by small boat or boats to shore in less than a day in most instances probably in less than half a day for most cargos under 10,000 d. The ocean going ship never needs to actually dock or even anchor out although that does facilitate the transfer of cargo.

Sure the Orbalites have pirate tendencies but I don’t see them lying in wait anchored off a manorial village for an occassional cargo for extended periods of time. It’s to easy to be spotted by the Thayan Navy or reported to them as pirates. Thayan captains would be very receptive to reports of pirates due to fedual spoils resulting from capturing a ship.

Since Thay has a Navy that patrols their waters. There is no reason a Master Mercantyler or Ship’s Captain couldn’t “gift” a Naval Captain or Noble to provide them with an “escort’ them for a short trip up North which would tend to discourage most pirates.

The shipping articles makes it pretty clear there are not huge numbers of ships sailing the seas. IMO the majority sail under feudal naval or guild control.

A port on Lake Benath makes Kaldor’s trade subject to interference by the Thardic Republic. Don’t forget that trade is a two-way thing, and goods flowing to—and more importantly from—Kaldor’s port on Lake Benath will have to travel across the lake and then down the Thard River. That makes it hostage to whatever control Tharda wishes to place on it. At the very least, there would be steep taxes and these could become punitive if relations between Kaldor and Tharda were to turn sour. And they aren’t all that good now!

Kaldor simply extending it’s borders to the east is not really an option. Firstly, there’s the matter of the dwarves; I doubt they’d appreciate becoming subject to the Kaldoran crown…for a start, the Khuzan king would be out of a job, and I doubt he’ll sit still for that!.

The second is the coastline itself; there are no suitable locations for a harbour on any part of that coastline. The shoreline is mostly cliffs or is extremely rugged, and the path from Kaldor has to cross a major mountain range. Remember that the road to Azadmere along the Silver Way is steep, rugged, and practically impassable now; blazing a trail through gargun infested mountains would be much more expensive than building a port on Tuleme Island.

Lastly, that coastline is subject to harassment from Orbaal (and points further east). Don’t forget, the Orbaalese are basically pirates at heart. Any port would have to be heavily defended and there would be little, if any, warning before an attack. That would mean Kaldor would have to build a naval capability to keep the shipping lanes clear. A further expense. Tuleme Island is reached via a log, narrow estuary. Not a lot of room for manoeuvring a large vessel, and within range of shore defences and lookouts. Lookouts with beacons who can give advanced warning of an attack to the harbour.

In summary, a port on the eastern shore of Lake Benath puts all Kaldor’s trade under the thumb of Coranan or—even worse—Golotha, and a harbour on the eastern coastline of Hârn is expensive to establish and maintain, and not safe even then. Tuleme Island is cheaper, safer, and not as vulnerable to foreign interference.

The major site that I think is more viable for trade is on the eastern shore of Lake Benath near Messlyneshire. That would majorly open up trade between Tharda and Kaldor and allow the possibility of trading into Orbaal via Arakalia. A Lake Benath port would be reasonably close to Tashal, so would significantly benefit the existing major markets. It would seriously diminish (and probably eventually kill) the Salt Route though.

In developing my discussion, I didn’t go as far as to do any calculations; I haven’t the foggiest notion about where to start with that, so my hat’s off to you, mate! But I took it as axiomatic that transportation by ship is far more cost effective than a caravan.

There is also the advantages of the Kald River watershed itself; all the wool can come downstream to Jedes and Tuleme; very little in the way of energy is expended. You simply float the wool on barges and go with the current. Transporting goods upriver is a little more difficult, but they can be high value, low volume (although I suspect a fair percentage of the talbars would be completely empty).

To answer Peter the Skald about what region might provide competition with Hârn over wool, I’m not certain. I seem to recall something about sheep in southern Shorkyne (between Trierzon and Shorkyne…a disputed zone subject to numerous border conflicts). But you also have to remember that the type of sheep is also important (type of sheep = type of wool). For example, Australian merino wool is highly prized, especially the lower fibre sizes (14 micron fibre is especially prized by Italian suit makers). In medieval times, English wool was prized for these same reasons; wool from sheep raised on the Continent wasn’t a good as English wool.

Now, I don’t recall any official material saying that Hârnic wool was better than Lythian wool, but it’s a reasonable stance to take. So wool from, say, Shorkyne will be cheaper (because it’s closer), but Hârnic wool might be better, in the sense that it’s easier to work or produces better cloth or takes a wider range of dyes…or multiple reasons.

1) My criticism to this piece has been in many ways unwarranted. Reading it through again (and forgetting about the Port of Kaldor stuff NRC has written, with canals etc.), I see this is foremost a scenario and only secondarily a suggestion of economic development in Hârn. My apologies, Leitchy.

2) I ventured to do some basic maths on costs of transport, presenting several scenarios for Kaldor to export its wool. A port at Tuleme Island came out clearly as the best solution, and I believe Hârnians themselves are able to see the benefits.

In my calculations, changing the export route of Kaldor wool from Tashal-Oselbridge-Burzyn-Thay-Emelrene into Tashal-Jedes-Tuleme-(Melderyn)-Emelrene would cut the costs of transportation roughly by 80 %. This would bring the prices of Kaldor wool down to very near the prices of Kanday wool*, making Kaldor instantly into a Hârnic “superpower” of wool production. Especially if we assume that the present wool surplus of Kaldor is of very high quality (to make it economical to export it at all).

This is a new insight for me. Leitchy, thanks for throwing my thoughts into a new and interesting orbit.

-ILe

* As of now, Kanday is the major wool-exporter of Hârn, and the only one on Hârn to have real meaning in the scale of Venarive. (See the Lythia economic map.)